ADias

Only of you have space (volume) to add the additive. Do not overfill.

Ironman88

Well Moose - you suspect wrong.

Ironman88

When I switched from Mobil 1 0w-40 to Motul 5w-40, I noticed that the engine when hot was less "noisy" at idle, and over the following 3,000 miles, the engine produced less soot. It also ran smoother.

I did add MoS2 to the oil as well and that may have had a positive influence on things.

MrMoose

Ironman, your evidence so far has been a link to a 15 minute marketing video from Driven, and it's about an issue that isn't relevant to the 997.2 engine, or in any way related to metal wear. So I'm going to trust my own engineering judgement on this one.

Honestly I doubt I have any hope of convincing the true believers in this thread, I'm just screaming into the void about "Internet forum wisdom", lol.

Petza914

In 2014 my own UOA reports showed Mobil 1 shesring to a low viscosity in as few as 3k miles. That's the last time I ever put M1.into one of my engines. Back in the 2000s I lost oil pressure when using Castrol Syntec and never used it in anything again. I've never had an oil pressure or engine issue with Driven and the UOA reports are better than anything I see from anyone else in the same engines so I'll continue using it until someone shows me quantitative evidence that's there's something better, but so far that doesn't exist. I keep my Porsches forever and they'll likely go to my son after that so spending an extra $100 for better oil in each oil change is worth it to me to prevent the $30k engine rebuilds.

You can use and do whatever you want, but your correct in that you won't convince me to go back to Mobil 1 when I've personally seen how poor a choice it is.

BTW, I haven't watched the video you're referencing as a Driven promo video - I base my oil decisions and change intervals off my own UOA reports from my own cars.

Ironman88

The above referenced self-doubt you've expressed and are sensing is most likely well founded.

MrMoose

I mean, I already commented on that.

Castrol Syntec is generally a decent oil and is used in a lot of BMW engines. How could the oil brand cause you to lose oil pressure? Like, completely, or it was just lower than you liked?

Petza914

Got hot and turned to water, dropping the pressure.

MrMoose

That's not really a thing that happens? I mean, all oil gets thinner when it gets hot, but unless something goes completely screwy (like fuel dilution or something) it should stay reasonably close to it's spec'd viscosity range at engine operating temperatures.

I mean, were you using the right viscosity and oil spec for the car (like, did you fill it yourself or did someone potentially use the wrong grade)? Was the oil pressure *really* low, or just lower than you're used to? How'd you verify the oil was actually too thin beyond just the pressure reading? You sure it wasn't an oil pump or filter issue? Did anything actually go wrong with the engine or did you just not like what you saw on the gagues?

Like, oil pressure isn't a great indicator of protection by itself, it's a proxy for flow and viscosity, and "more" isn't always better. If oil pressure were all we cared about we'd all be using the thickest oil we could find and pegging the freakin' needle.

Work with me here, bro: you're asking me to trust your technical opinions about motor oil, and you seem to think a lot of brands are crap regardless of all the API and other testing they go through. Convince me you know what you're talking about when you're saying that Castrol Syntec, another generally well-regarded oil brand, is bad because of your one-time experience.

Petza914

It was 5w50 in a modified Saab 900 turbo spg in the middle of summer. Oil pressure dropped to where the low pressure light came on. I shut down the car, pulled the dipstick and although the level was at the max line it was as thin as I've ever seen oil get.

Ironically, I switched to Mobil 1 after that and never had another pressure issue in that car. I ran Mobil 1 in my cars from 1992 until 2013 when I started doing UOA in my engines and then started to see the oil characteristics change based on mileage and use case. My supercharged 997 needed oil changes more frequently than my wife's 997 in order to have the same viscosity and metal wear numbers at the change intervals. I look at metal wear, TAN, TBN, viscosity, and zinc and phosphous levels to determine what the correct mileage interval is for a specific car. Based on my reports, mileage is far more important than time and have run an oil 2 years one time in the same car where I ran it for only 6 months covering the same mileage, and the UOA reports were almost identical, so I base things on mileage vs time.

Here's M1 in the first sample vs Motul 8100 in the 2nd sample. Notice the metal wear and viscosity differences.



Here's a later sample where you can compare M1, Motul, and DT40 in the same engine.



Here's my 84 928 Euro S where the PO swore by the Shell Rotella 20w50 in the first sample before I switched it to DT50 15w50 which is better in every metal wear category even though the viscosity is lower.



Here's my Cayenne Turbo S bought with dealer serviced M1 0w40 Euro Formula vs Dricen DT40 I've used ever since. Again, better in every category.



Here's Valvoline VR1 in a 944 S2 I bought and then switched to DT50...better again....




Is it better by enough to matter...not sure, but better is better and less metal wear is the goal, so I'll continue using the Driven Lubricants until someone proves to me something else is better. From what I've seen, nothing else is as good an minimizing internal engine wear and it doesn't need other chemicals added to it. Also, not being A40 approved means it's not using the same additive package as all the others people use, which may be why it's significantly different and seems to work better.

Atgani

Driven DI available here in the UK :

https://aaoil.co.uk/product/driven-d...lly-synthetic/

Pretty sure it’s available in 5L containers. Speak to Anders (he’s the owner of AAOil and is incredibly helpful)

MrMoose

So you're not adjusting for mileage or dilution. You run more miles on an oil of course you're going to have higher wear numbers. Table 1 you've got 5500 miles on the M1 but 4000 on the Driven, and you've added an extra 0.5 qt fresh oil to the Driven. So scale up the Driven numbers by ~44% (5500/4000 + 0.5/8, ballpark). Mobil 1 performed the same for Fe, tad worse for Al. Second table same thing, you're comparing the M1 with 38-83% more miles than the Driven, so they all look pretty much equivalent to me. Fourth table, without knowing the mileage on the original oil in the Cayenne it's impossible to draw any conclusions, but even so I'd say they're all reasonably equivalent. Wear numbers all look reasonable and everything looks better than the universal averages. You're playing in the noise.

928/944 are different beasts: they would've originally spec'd for and tested on API SF rather than SN/SP A40 so I can't help you there. I don't use modern oil formulations on my classic cars either because they're not appropriate. Do not bring a kumquat to a discussion about oranges.

So basically on A40 spec'd engines we're looking at equivalent to maybe marginally better, but not a clearly significant difference. That's a far cry from the "M1 is junk and you have to use magic motor oil or your engine will blow up" that people spout around here. Fine if you want to do it, but don't pretend it's that important.

Bonus questions:
-What are the higher levels of ZDDP in the Driven doing to your cat converter life? What do you think is going to happen first, you wear out the engine from using M1, or you degrade the cats from using a non-API non A40 oil? Those aren't cheap, you know
-Why are you still doing UOAs every oil change? You found an oil and oil change interval that works well for the engine. What useful information is all this additional testing getting you?

Carrera2RS

Here's a later sample where you can compare M1, Motul, and DT40 in the same engine.






[/QUOTE]


I'm looking at the data and trying to see what the significant differences are I can see the big step up in Molybdenum (and Boron ?) which I assume is an additive and can see the difference in viscosity at 100 degrees but 'only' 11.85 to 12.07-13.28 which looks very close ? and the Zinc and Phosphorus look similar or higher ?

I must admit looking through the data is hard for me to see, I see that Xw 50's are nearer 18 viscosity in the spec are these all Xw 40's ?

Any more insight appreciated

sandwedge

Isn't Mobil 1 what you still get if you have an oil change done by Porsche dealerships though? And last I heard, new cars from the factory are delivered with Mobil 1. Or am I living in the past on this? Never saw any breaking news on any of this changing.

MrMoose

You mostly want to look at the wear metals, pretty much aluminum and iron for a modern engine. Molybdenum, boron, zinc, calcium, phosphorous are all part of the oil additive package and don't tell you anything useful for wear, just what was in the oil you're using. Silicon is typically dirt and can tell you how well your air filter is working. At the bottom, antifreeze and water should be zero (though there's a lot easier way to tell if you have an issue there, just look at the inside of your oil cap, lol). Fuel can tell you if you've got some sort of fuel dilution problem (like running rich, though at that point you should be throwing a CEL) and TBN (total base number) is a measure of remaining oil life, it's basically how much ability the oil has remaining to neutralize acidic combustion products.

But like I said, you can't just look at the raw numbers, you have to consider the mileage. You put 5500 miles on an oil, it's going to have higher metal numbers than if you put 3000 miles on it.

Personally I've never found oil analysis to be a very useful ongoing diagnostic tool. I mean, it has its uses: I did one on the Cayman when I bought it used as a baseline and for peace of mind that I hadn't gotten a lemon. It looked fine so I haven't seen any reason to do another one. It can also be useful to ensure you haven't exceed your oil's life, though most of us are changing oil frequently enough that that's not a concern...like, any modern car with synthetic oil should be fine for at least 6000 miles, but you're worried you can verify that. But you really only have to do that once.