Time for An Air Filter: K & N
09-25-2007, 10:58 PM
#16
I try for every possible hp and lb of torque. I try to reduce weight being careful of my track wheel, tire, and rotor selection. All of this for better results at the track.
I've tried K&K and AFE and will never use an oiled filter again. I'm very careful but I had MAF problems due to the oiled filter. When you use an oiled filter (new) it tends to collect debris. The same debris in a paper filter is easy to vacuum off, while on an oiled one you need to use the cleaner and then re-oil. It's in the re-oiling where the problems arise. I found it hard to get just the right amount of oil. Too little and I felt it would be ineffective and let material into the engine. Too much and you foul the MAF (like I did on my M3, which was easy to take care of with a can of MAF Cleaner). But what a pain -- my MAF fouled on track at Watkins Glen...
Maybe there are 4 HP to have when the filter is new, and maybe that goes down to 0 gain or a loss when it's dirty. Then the cleaning and oiling process. I just found it wasn't worth the bother...
I've tried K&K and AFE and will never use an oiled filter again. I'm very careful but I had MAF problems due to the oiled filter. When you use an oiled filter (new) it tends to collect debris. The same debris in a paper filter is easy to vacuum off, while on an oiled one you need to use the cleaner and then re-oil. It's in the re-oiling where the problems arise. I found it hard to get just the right amount of oil. Too little and I felt it would be ineffective and let material into the engine. Too much and you foul the MAF (like I did on my M3, which was easy to take care of with a can of MAF Cleaner). But what a pain -- my MAF fouled on track at Watkins Glen...
Maybe there are 4 HP to have when the filter is new, and maybe that goes down to 0 gain or a loss when it's dirty. Then the cleaning and oiling process. I just found it wasn't worth the bother...
The issue I had with the AFE was the stalling issue on the first version, which I was involved on the fix for the 2nd version.
To each his own...I have no issues using a oiled filter for the car...I have done it on mass air equipped cars for over 15 years.
Dave
09-26-2007, 11:20 AM
#17
Instructor
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Installed a K&N on my 2007 GMC denali, 2 weeks later the CEL came on, saw the chatter on various forums regarding the oil on the K&N filters so I put the OEM filter back in and hosed off the MAF sensor with electrical contact cleaner, the CEL went off a couple of days later before I had a chance to get to the dealer. Sorry, but I would not believe anything I read on K&N's website, they have millions at stake.
I would only trust an independant lab, one that was not paid by K&N to do the testing.
Also, the army uses these filters on turbines and diesels without a MAF sensor and they like having a filter that can be cleaned and re-oiled in the field so they don't have to wait for spares. Really no comparison to our cars. Anyway, for little or no power gain - why bother? I also think the K&N's are way overpriced, you can buy a few OEM filters for the cost of one K&N.
Also, If you go to the dealer with an engine problem or CEL, I would not want to have the K&N installed, if they want to be a PITA, and a lot of them are, they will immediately point the finger at the K&N filter. so is it worth it?
I would only trust an independant lab, one that was not paid by K&N to do the testing.
Also, the army uses these filters on turbines and diesels without a MAF sensor and they like having a filter that can be cleaned and re-oiled in the field so they don't have to wait for spares. Really no comparison to our cars. Anyway, for little or no power gain - why bother? I also think the K&N's are way overpriced, you can buy a few OEM filters for the cost of one K&N.
Also, If you go to the dealer with an engine problem or CEL, I would not want to have the K&N installed, if they want to be a PITA, and a lot of them are, they will immediately point the finger at the K&N filter. so is it worth it?
09-28-2007, 05:12 PM
#18
Rennlist Member
I would also add that you can find independent tests that are pretty well done that show that a K&N filter lets more fine particulated dirt through than a paper filter, with no real difference in airflow. Here's the best one I've seen:
http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
So anyway, you get:
Questionable or no real performance advantage
Mass air flow sensor issues unless you're very careful oiling.
Less filtering of particulate dirt
More expense
More hassle.
You make your own decision....
http://home.stny.rr.com/jbplock/ISO5011/SPICER.htm
So anyway, you get:
Questionable or no real performance advantage
Mass air flow sensor issues unless you're very careful oiling.
Less filtering of particulate dirt
More expense
More hassle.
You make your own decision....
09-30-2007, 02:17 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
My question is does anybody know how to get TO the dang Air filter to change it out? I've looked all over and this may seem stupid but I can't see how to open up the air filter cover to change out the K&N one I've got to try out. Any thoughts/tips from the DIY out there? (On my previous cars it was easy...just a few clips and bang switch it out..the 997 seems like I need to do surgery on it to change it out!) 
09-30-2007, 10:00 PM
#20
Instructor
Good reply by caf.
I can't agree with Dave07997S or the K&N website. I dare you to find a Bosch MAFS engineer who thinks that an oiled K&N filter is a good idea and will not effect the long term performance of his MAFS.
Performance gains of K&N evaporate quicker than spit in the hot dessert sun in the real world.
I can't agree with Dave07997S or the K&N website. I dare you to find a Bosch MAFS engineer who thinks that an oiled K&N filter is a good idea and will not effect the long term performance of his MAFS.
Performance gains of K&N evaporate quicker than spit in the hot dessert sun in the real world.
10-01-2007, 11:27 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
I suppose a large portion of their business on this technology and now that cars have stricter and stricter limits on their ECU's for pollution and performance reasons, possible performance gains using their filters vs the potential for MAF failures and Check Engine faults just does not seem worth it any longer.
The margin for error is much lower then it once was.
10-01-2007, 11:53 AM
#22
Race Director
My question is does anybody know how to get TO the dang Air filter to change it out? I've looked all over and this may seem stupid but I can't see how to open up the air filter cover to change out the K&N one I've got to try out. Any thoughts/tips from the DIY out there? (On my previous cars it was easy...just a few clips and bang switch it out..the 997 seems like I need to do surgery on it to change it out!)
10-01-2007, 12:01 PM
#23
Good reply by caf.
I can't agree with Dave07997S or the K&N website. I dare you to find a Bosch MAFS engineer who thinks that an oiled K&N filter is a good idea and will not effect the long term performance of his MAFS.
Performance gains of K&N evaporate quicker than spit in the hot dessert sun in the real world.
I can't agree with Dave07997S or the K&N website. I dare you to find a Bosch MAFS engineer who thinks that an oiled K&N filter is a good idea and will not effect the long term performance of his MAFS.
Performance gains of K&N evaporate quicker than spit in the hot dessert sun in the real world.
I am not agreeing with K&N's answer...I am just stating my experience with a oil based filter, for over 20 years of using them with no issues on a variety of cars.
Dave
11-29-2010, 09:59 AM
#24
Pro
Its time for a filter for me too...I was considering considering K&N...though I question the minimal gain versus potential problems. I feel Porsche engineered the OEM filter for appropriate performance applications...the rest of the car seems to be doing Ok so I'll stick with the OEM. Thanks for all the input.
11-29-2010, 03:33 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
I try for every possible hp and lb of torque. I try to reduce weight being careful of my track wheel, tire, and rotor selection. All of this for better results at the track.
I've tried K&K and AFE and will never use an oiled filter again. I'm very careful but I had MAF problems due to the oiled filter. When you use an oiled filter (new) it tends to collect debris. The same debris in a paper filter is easy to vacuum off, while on an oiled one you need to use the cleaner and then re-oil. It's in the re-oiling where the problems arise. I found it hard to get just the right amount of oil. Too little and I felt it would be ineffective and let material into the engine. Too much and you foul the MAF (like I did on my M3, which was easy to take care of with a can of MAF Cleaner). But what a pain -- my MAF fouled on track at Watkins Glen...
Maybe there are 4 HP to have when the filter is new, and maybe that goes down to 0 gain or a loss when it's dirty. Then the cleaning and oiling process. I just found it wasn't worth the bother...
I've tried K&K and AFE and will never use an oiled filter again. I'm very careful but I had MAF problems due to the oiled filter. When you use an oiled filter (new) it tends to collect debris. The same debris in a paper filter is easy to vacuum off, while on an oiled one you need to use the cleaner and then re-oil. It's in the re-oiling where the problems arise. I found it hard to get just the right amount of oil. Too little and I felt it would be ineffective and let material into the engine. Too much and you foul the MAF (like I did on my M3, which was easy to take care of with a can of MAF Cleaner). But what a pain -- my MAF fouled on track at Watkins Glen...
Maybe there are 4 HP to have when the filter is new, and maybe that goes down to 0 gain or a loss when it's dirty. Then the cleaning and oiling process. I just found it wasn't worth the bother...
I've had exact same issues with K&N on my Audi, and it DID mess up my MAF. Twice it had to be rebuilt (cleaned, etc...) and once MAF had to be replaced, I got lucky Audi covered it under warranty as I knew the service manager.
The K&N FAQ item is a whole lot of BS! All you had to do is to run a rag through air intake past filter to see how oily it was! HUGE MESS! Re-oiling is a pain, and you just can never get it right! I'd stay away!
11-29-2010, 04:17 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
I used to use a K&N on my "00 Audi A6. I submit an oil sample annually to Blackstone Labs for analysis. The oil analysis showed a higher than normal concentration of silicon, which they say is indicative of poor air filtration.
That was enough evidence for me, I switched back to stock paper filter and the silicon levels went back to normal.
That was enough evidence for me, I switched back to stock paper filter and the silicon levels went back to normal.
11-29-2010, 08:39 PM
#28
Race Director
Holy thread revival Batman!
11-29-2010, 10:19 PM
#30
Pro
Oh WOW!...didn't realize it either...I did a search and got caught up in the thread only to reply?!!! I thought I chose an Oct.2010 thread in the search...o well...Thanks all.., past, present and future.