End to the oil change after break-in debate
12-23-2009, 12:15 PM
#91
Don't forget the engine contaminants resulting from combustion like acid and whatever; the filter has little effect on removing that stuff. How about assembly lubricants? I don't imagine they make good running lubricants too. What happens when you add acid and other contaminants to the lube they use to assemble the engine?
Gotta be a witch's brew that Porsche might not need to care very much about warranty-wise. Would be anti-good-marketing to require new P-cars to come in to service to get their oil changed after only 500 miles. Makes me think the OP is smart to dump the factory oil ASAP.
Gotta be a witch's brew that Porsche might not need to care very much about warranty-wise. Would be anti-good-marketing to require new P-cars to come in to service to get their oil changed after only 500 miles. Makes me think the OP is smart to dump the factory oil ASAP.
12-23-2009, 12:34 PM
#92
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
FWIW, I do not take claims by K and N as being "Truth".
It is likely that Porsche bases their oil change intervals on statistical averages.
I suspect the standard deviation around the mean is quite high, consider the number of cars being offered for sale with very low mileage. On the other hand, I'm at the other end of the scale with 30,000 miles on my RS, of which half is on a race track.
I also note that Porsche suggests that oil be changed annually irrespective of miles driven. This speaks to LIBr's point about corrosive contaminants caused by combustion by products.
Finally, there is no reason for any posts to contain comments which are insulting, demeaning or as seen above, both. This is a friendly reminder.
Regards,
It is likely that Porsche bases their oil change intervals on statistical averages.
I suspect the standard deviation around the mean is quite high, consider the number of cars being offered for sale with very low mileage. On the other hand, I'm at the other end of the scale with 30,000 miles on my RS, of which half is on a race track.
I also note that Porsche suggests that oil be changed annually irrespective of miles driven. This speaks to LIBr's point about corrosive contaminants caused by combustion by products.
Finally, there is no reason for any posts to contain comments which are insulting, demeaning or as seen above, both. This is a friendly reminder.
Regards,
12-23-2009, 01:50 PM
#93
Banned
The bottom line is that there are too many misinformed individuals unnecessarily worrying over nothing. The internal combustion engine is not exactly a new invention whose long term use is a relative unknown. I'd say they pretty much have it perfected by now. Naturally, right before its threatened obsolescence by electric power plants.
Follow the manufacturer's recommendations in all things and you won't go wrong. It's in their best interest to keep customers from making unnecessary costly warranty claims. So if you follow their recommendations, they pay your warranty claim. And it shouldn't take much smarts to realize that a company would want to lower its warranty liability costs. And so from this perspective, their recommendations can be regarded as ultra conservative.
But it would be foolish for anyone here to think that sending their oil to a lab and paying for an analysis is a smart thing to do. If anyone has any paranoid tendencies they should apply them to their personal health, where at least being a hypochondriac might pay off if a deadly disease is caught early enough.
Follow the manufacturer's recommendations in all things and you won't go wrong. It's in their best interest to keep customers from making unnecessary costly warranty claims. So if you follow their recommendations, they pay your warranty claim. And it shouldn't take much smarts to realize that a company would want to lower its warranty liability costs. And so from this perspective, their recommendations can be regarded as ultra conservative.
But it would be foolish for anyone here to think that sending their oil to a lab and paying for an analysis is a smart thing to do. If anyone has any paranoid tendencies they should apply them to their personal health, where at least being a hypochondriac might pay off if a deadly disease is caught early enough.
end?
12-24-2009, 11:35 AM
#95
Pro
Thread Starter
No matter the type of the member or disorders some may have, I personally value the input and any factual data that further the discussion.
12-24-2009, 12:48 PM
#97
Banned
Thanks cello - given the size of our forum, members are bound to run into others with Narcissistic Personality Disorders. When a member agrees with an Original Post, but then searches points to argue, it becomes clear they are driven by insecurities.
No matter the type of the member or disorders some may have, I personally value the input and any factual data that further the discussion.
No matter the type of the member or disorders some may have, I personally value the input and any factual data that further the discussion.
So by default your theories, back by nadda, hold merit on their own because they exist in your own mind - Gotcha. I now understand whom I'm conversing with.
Oh sorry, are the facts getting in the way of your psychology theories about attitude........Mr. Psychologist?
Last edited by OCBen; 12-24-2009 at 01:23 PM. Reason: typo
12-24-2009, 01:30 PM
#98
Rennlist Member
I don't have enough knowledge about oil change intervals to offer an intelligent opinion, but to the above statement... now that's just crazy talk right there.
12-24-2009, 01:39 PM
#99
Three Wheelin'
I want to be clear. I have no problem with OCBen or his demand for clarity of language on the Board or here. My comment was more that the thread had devolved to "argument for arguments sake" and that the 'informative' aspect to the thread had been abandoned at the point I posted ... My opinion of course FWIW . Happy Holidays all!!
12-24-2009, 01:47 PM
#100
Pro
Thread Starter
What I find interesting is that many of the big German companies have upped their oil change intervals. For example, once BMW began marketing "Free Maintenance", suddenly they moved from the dealer recommended 5K to 15K intervals on the same oil.
BMW also recommend break-in oil service at 1K miles, when the customer was the sponsor. Now it has been deemed no longer needed, nor is it covered in the bare bones "Free Maintenance" policy (except for M cars).
12-24-2009, 02:27 PM
#101
Banned
I would agree there has to be some formula and sadly the marketers clearly are an active ingredient.
What I find interesting is that many of the big German companies have upped their oil change intervals. For example, once BMW began marketing "Free Maintenance", suddenly they moved from the dealer recommended 5K to 15K intervals on the same oil.
BMW also recommend break-in oil service at 1K miles, when the customer was the sponsor. Now it has been deemed no longer needed, nor is it covered in the bare bones "Free Maintenance" policy (except for M cars).
What I find interesting is that many of the big German companies have upped their oil change intervals. For example, once BMW began marketing "Free Maintenance", suddenly they moved from the dealer recommended 5K to 15K intervals on the same oil.
BMW also recommend break-in oil service at 1K miles, when the customer was the sponsor. Now it has been deemed no longer needed, nor is it covered in the bare bones "Free Maintenance" policy (except for M cars).
But do you really think it's just a marketing ploy? What would they have to gain by claiming that oil change intervals can now be increased threefold if indeed this longer oil change interval was harmful to an engine? Do you think they're doing it just to try to sell a few more cars? While engines in the meantime are failing left and right because of failure to change the oil sooner?
A car company will go broke in no time if this were the case. Engines being constantly replaced under warranty. Engine failures alarmingly being reported in the media and in forums such as this. Prospective customers shying away from a brand whose engines have a reputation of early failure. All for what? To try to sell a few more cars up front?
Sometimes a car company knows what it's doing when it says the oil change interval can be increased threefold. They've probably done quite a bit of long term testing and they've come to the conclusion that - by golly - these new engines with these new synthetic oils don't require that frequent of oil changes. Hmm, "Hey marketing dept, do you suppose you could maybe use this fact in your campaigns?"
12-24-2009, 02:43 PM
#102
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Good point.
But do you really think it's just a marketing ploy? What would they have to gain by claiming that oil change intervals can now be increased threefold if indeed this longer oil change interval was harmful to an engine? Do you think they're doing it just to try to sell a few more cars? While engines in the meantime are failing left and right because of failure to change the oil sooner?
A car company will go broke in no time if this were the case. Engines being constantly replaced under warranty. Engine failures alarmingly being reported in the media and in forums such as this. Prospective customers shying away from a brand whose engines have a reputation of early failure. All for what? To try to sell a few more cars up front?
Sometimes a car company knows what it's doing when it says the oil change interval can be increased threefold. They've probably done quite a bit of long term testing and they've come to the conclusion that - by golly - these new engines with these new synthetic oils don't require that frequent of oil changes. Hmm, "Hey marketing dept, do you suppose you could maybe use this fact in your campaigns?"
But do you really think it's just a marketing ploy? What would they have to gain by claiming that oil change intervals can now be increased threefold if indeed this longer oil change interval was harmful to an engine? Do you think they're doing it just to try to sell a few more cars? While engines in the meantime are failing left and right because of failure to change the oil sooner?
A car company will go broke in no time if this were the case. Engines being constantly replaced under warranty. Engine failures alarmingly being reported in the media and in forums such as this. Prospective customers shying away from a brand whose engines have a reputation of early failure. All for what? To try to sell a few more cars up front?
Sometimes a car company knows what it's doing when it says the oil change interval can be increased threefold. They've probably done quite a bit of long term testing and they've come to the conclusion that - by golly - these new engines with these new synthetic oils don't require that frequent of oil changes. Hmm, "Hey marketing dept, do you suppose you could maybe use this fact in your campaigns?"
I also suspect that in our speed restricted environment, oil change intervals are longer here than say in Germany where cars are driven harder on the Autobahn.
Warranty periods are typically shorter in Europe than they are here, 2 years for Porsche versus 4 over here.
If statistics show that engines in US cars work less hard I can see a marketing advantage to longer oil change intervals. It also reduces the cost of loaners and perhaps the average (note average) American buyer dislikes having to take the car to the dealer more often?
Regards,
12-24-2009, 03:12 PM
#103
I think the oil change interval issue may have more effect the overall engine life as opposed to warrantee claims. The only time I remember car companies getting into trouble with warrantee claims and oil quality was when they reduced the amount of oil for the fill in some Toyotas and VW products ( and I am sure others). This was designed to reduce the cost of the change but, in some cases, caused sludge problems. I too noticed that when MB and BMW began including maint. service in their warrantees, the oil capacities and intervals were increased, presumably to reduce maint. costs. In the end, I do not think it impacts the auto company but rather the person who owns the car when it is old. Actually, since so many car drivers leaes cars today, I think no one ( auto co's and new car leasees)cares about this... only long term owners. Actually if a car NEVER had its oiol changed under warrantee, I doubt it would result in a repair needed during the warrantee period but the wear rate wold like show problems down the road. I intend to keep the 911 for a long time and I do not put so many miles on the car. Therefore, I change the oil more often then specified ( or once per year).
12-24-2009, 03:44 PM
#104
Pro
Thread Starter
BMW for example recomends never to change the oil in their automatic transmissions, sighting lifetime oil. Guess what is known to fail under that recomendation once the car hits ~100k. Conversely, cars that follow BMW's old service intervals and flush tranmissions fluid more frequently, life of the transmission is extended exponetially (well beyond 100k).
If I were a company looking to increase my profits and sell more new cars, I'd strongly consider options that reduce 100K plus service life, while balancing that the car clears the warranty period.
I'm currious to see how the new "low maintenance" strategy plays out long term and how minimal maintenance they remain.
Yeah, sad but very true. One of the main reasons I like to buy new....
12-24-2009, 03:53 PM
#105
Race Director
I suspect geography and associated marketing plans are a factor. I wonder for instance if the oil change intervals are different in Europe than they are here. Is it possible that German manufacturers base themselves on real data gathered from the target market? It would make sense.
I also suspect that in our speed restricted environment, oil change intervals are longer here than say in Germany where cars are driven harder on the Autobahn.
Warranty periods are typically shorter in Europe than they are here, 2 years for Porsche versus 4 over here.
If statistics show that engines in US cars work less hard I can see a marketing advantage to longer oil change intervals. It also reduces the cost of loaners and perhaps the average (note average) American buyer dislikes having to take the car to the dealer more often?
Regards,
I also suspect that in our speed restricted environment, oil change intervals are longer here than say in Germany where cars are driven harder on the Autobahn.
Warranty periods are typically shorter in Europe than they are here, 2 years for Porsche versus 4 over here.
If statistics show that engines in US cars work less hard I can see a marketing advantage to longer oil change intervals. It also reduces the cost of loaners and perhaps the average (note average) American buyer dislikes having to take the car to the dealer more often?
Regards,
Here in USA commute distances are longer, commute speeds lower, cars spend more time idling. Temperature extremes are of course more prevalent here. I've driven my cars in cool and even cold temps that at possible in Europe but also in 116F temperatures.
Also, in many parts of the country the particulate matter content of the air is very high. Even in non-arid regions of the midwest - KS -- I've witnessed huge amounts of clouds of dust and smoke and soot from agricultural activities.
And in the arid portions of the west (from eastern OR to the southwest states, even west TX) I've encountered very high levels of dust. And these encounters are not always due to special climatic conditions but just the wind blowing the right direction.
Sincerely,
Macster.