Short video of my RS with an active wing.
10-05-2009, 02:12 PM
#16
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I'm sorry, but your questions are so absurd that there's not a chance in Hell they're critical and not sarcastic. I take that you didn't bother to click the link I provided before replying. If you had, you would have seen that the device is neither a gimmick nor a joke.
I'll save you a click and tell you that active aero shaved nearly two seconds per lap off of a two-minute lap around Thunderhill on an E36 versus the same wing in static mode. The GT-R which won the last One Lap was equipped with an Aeromotions wing and set a wet skidpad record at Tire Rack's facility.
I'll save you a click and tell you that active aero shaved nearly two seconds per lap off of a two-minute lap around Thunderhill on an E36 versus the same wing in static mode. The GT-R which won the last One Lap was equipped with an Aeromotions wing and set a wet skidpad record at Tire Rack's facility.
I am out.
10-05-2009, 02:35 PM
#17
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Actually I did...I don not rush to judgement without viewing all available evidence....Having said so If this becomes marketable I recommend someone else for marketing without the angery response no matter how absured the YOU feel the comments are towards the idea.
I am out.
I am out.
If your questions were serious, it is patently evident that you lack even a fundamental understanding of aerodynamics. I'd rather believe your post was a joke than anything remotely serious because, if it were, I'd hate to think you're an accredited instructor.
As I stated, I'm not in any way related to the company. I'm not in sales because I have a low threshold for nonsense.
10-05-2009, 04:46 PM
#20
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You might also want to consider another kind of lockout feature where the wing stays flat if you are below a certain speed. Driving around the city under 50mph will only wear out the wing movement motors/linkage prematurely if it's moving all the time. I'm not sure what speed threshold would make sense, but this firm should be able to give you an idea.
I think it is very interesting and believe that, if done right, that it will increase the performance of the car on the track.
I also like the comment on how many wings are simply set for max AOA thinking this is the best solution for downforce. This research should help with identifying some of the ideal AOA's and how they affect the car under different conditions (high speed, stability, cornering (high and low speed), braking, etc...).
I personally like the idea of being able to change it and lock it. Maybe a more simple solution would allow for maybe 3 or 4 settings: high speed mode (provides some downforce for stability, but not so much as to severely limit top speed), downforce mode for the track to aid in higher speed cornering, and braking mode for high speed braking (air brake).
The Bugatti Veyron is set up with these 3 basic positions, although it may be an active wing that does much more.
Kudos to OP, and thanks for taking an interest in active aero and using your car to help with research.
10-05-2009, 05:00 PM
#21
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I'm going to guess that they are having it move at these lower speeds for both testing and marketing purposes. You need to get this thing to work at lower (safer) speeds first before you set it up for the high speed stuff. It is also easier to follow the car at these speeds with a camera to see what it is capable of and to show the basic idea of what it is supposed to accomplish.
10-05-2009, 05:48 PM
#22
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Looks cool and turns heads but Does it add function to the car ?
Does adding wings make it fly down the track should you reverse the angle of attack downward????
What if you are driving with the direction of the wind??? Will it lift the rearend of the car if you break hard???
Or how about facing crosswind with turbulance while making a fast turn??
Sorry but I do not see the advantage at the speeds we drive even on racetracks....maybe Nascar would be more interested in the idea?
Critical but not sarcastic,,,Best of luck
Does adding wings make it fly down the track should you reverse the angle of attack downward????
What if you are driving with the direction of the wind??? Will it lift the rearend of the car if you break hard???
Or how about facing crosswind with turbulance while making a fast turn??
Sorry but I do not see the advantage at the speeds we drive even on racetracks....maybe Nascar would be more interested in the idea?
Critical but not sarcastic,,,Best of luck
Since you're a PCA instructor, I'm assuming there wasn't enough information for you to understand the product. What we've done is fit the same form factor of the 997.1 GT3 RS wing with a higher downforce blade that can be actively controlled. Just like the OE wing, ours is less effective with a tail wind (lower apparent wind speed). However, the DF of our wing is greater than the 97.1, and more like the 97.2. Everyone likes an upgrade
As with all wings, setting one Angle of Attack is a compromise between downforce in corners, braking, and reducing drag on straightaways. Attached is an article about the 997.2 that "Smindustries" sent to me. The highlighted sections detail how the user should manually adjust the wing AoA for different race tracks. Our wing simply does this automatically, and for every section of the track. When he contacted us, he said, "I want this, automatically, and better". And then he lent us the RS for a month to make it happen.
As for the speeds, our blade adds 200lbs of DF @ 100mph. DF is exponential with speed (V^2) so it increases greatly from 100. This is very noticeable in feel, and lap times. For example, I was at a Time Attack two weekends ago, they turned the active aero off as an experiment, and slid off the track. The driver is a pro from Japan, and this was the only time he'd slid off track all year.
Please don't hesitate to ask technical questions. I welcome any constructive discussion.
10-06-2009, 03:58 PM
#23
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Regarding the ability for the wing to predictively change, that is possible, though not without a lot of development. Because the control unit uses very sensitive accelerometers, it knows when the driver is off the gas. It could then change the angle when it detects deceleration beyond a certain threshold. I believe that threshold is critical to determining whether the driver is preparing for an upshift or braking. Since the device is capable of reacting to tenths of a G, this may not be possible.
Greg is in a better position to explain it than I am, but it is my understanding that there will be a wing 'tune' specifically for 997s with this airfoil. The control unit knows the range and adjusts within that range.
I'm not sure I see the benefit of having presets when the device is capable of varying continuously. If the car is being raced, I think it would be prudent to let it do its thing during testing and let it define which angle is fastest for a given circuit. If one is bound by presets, it would never be optimized and a large portion of functionality is lost.
Thanks for dropping in, Greg. I forgot just how much downforce the wing is capable of achieving.
I'm going to guess that they are having it move at these lower speeds for both testing and marketing purposes. You need to get this thing to work at lower (safer) speeds first before you set it up for the high speed stuff. It is also easier to follow the car at these speeds with a camera to see what it is capable of and to show the basic idea of what it is supposed to accomplish.
I think it is very interesting and believe that, if done right, that it will increase the performance of the car on the track.
I also like the comment on how many wings are simply set for max AOA thinking this is the best solution for downforce. This research should help with identifying some of the ideal AOA's and how they affect the car under different conditions (high speed, stability, cornering (high and low speed), braking, etc...).
I personally like the idea of being able to change it and lock it. Maybe a more simple solution would allow for maybe 3 or 4 settings: high speed mode (provides some downforce for stability, but not so much as to severely limit top speed), downforce mode for the track to aid in higher speed cornering, and braking mode for high speed braking (air brake).
The Bugatti Veyron is set up with these 3 basic positions, although it may be an active wing that does much more.
Kudos to OP, and thanks for taking an interest in active aero and using your car to help with research.
I think it is very interesting and believe that, if done right, that it will increase the performance of the car on the track.
I also like the comment on how many wings are simply set for max AOA thinking this is the best solution for downforce. This research should help with identifying some of the ideal AOA's and how they affect the car under different conditions (high speed, stability, cornering (high and low speed), braking, etc...).
I personally like the idea of being able to change it and lock it. Maybe a more simple solution would allow for maybe 3 or 4 settings: high speed mode (provides some downforce for stability, but not so much as to severely limit top speed), downforce mode for the track to aid in higher speed cornering, and braking mode for high speed braking (air brake).
The Bugatti Veyron is set up with these 3 basic positions, although it may be an active wing that does much more.
Kudos to OP, and thanks for taking an interest in active aero and using your car to help with research.
I'm not sure I see the benefit of having presets when the device is capable of varying continuously. If the car is being raced, I think it would be prudent to let it do its thing during testing and let it define which angle is fastest for a given circuit. If one is bound by presets, it would never be optimized and a large portion of functionality is lost.
Hi, this is Greg from Aeromotions,
As for the speeds, our blade adds 200lbs of DF @ 100mph. DF is exponential with speed (V^2) so it increases greatly from 100. This is very noticeable in feel, and lap times. For example, I was at a Time Attack two weekends ago, they turned the active aero off as an experiment, and slid off the track. The driver is a pro from Japan, and this was the only time he'd slid off track all year.
Please don't hesitate to ask technical questions. I welcome any constructive discussion.
As for the speeds, our blade adds 200lbs of DF @ 100mph. DF is exponential with speed (V^2) so it increases greatly from 100. This is very noticeable in feel, and lap times. For example, I was at a Time Attack two weekends ago, they turned the active aero off as an experiment, and slid off the track. The driver is a pro from Japan, and this was the only time he'd slid off track all year.
Please don't hesitate to ask technical questions. I welcome any constructive discussion.
10-06-2009, 09:43 PM
#24
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[QUOTE=Wingman (Aeromotions);6960377]Hi, this is Greg from Aeromotions,
Since you're a PCA instructor, I'm assuming there wasn't enough information for you to understand the product. What we've done is fit the same form factor of the 997.1 GT3 RS wing with a higher downforce blade that can be actively controlled. Just like the OE wing, ours is less effective with a tail wind (lower apparent wind speed). However, the DF of our wing is greater than the 97.1, and more like the 97.2. Everyone likes an upgrade
As with all wings, setting one Angle of Attack is a compromise between downforce in corners, braking, and reducing drag on straightaways. Attached is an article about the 997.2 that "Smindustries" sent to me. The highlighted sections detail how the user should manually adjust the wing AoA for different race tracks. Our wing simply does this automatically, and for every section of the track. When he contacted us, he said, "I want this, automatically, and better". And then he lent us the RS for a month to make it happen.
As for the speeds, our blade adds 200lbs of DF @ 100mph. DF is exponential with speed (V^2) so it increases greatly from 100. This is very noticeable in feel, and lap times. For example, I was at a Time Attack two weekends ago, they turned the active aero off as an experiment, and slid off the track. The driver is a pro from Japan, and this was the only time he'd slid off track all year.
Please don't hesitate to ask technical questions. I welcome any constructive discussion.
Thank you Greg for the explanation of your great ideas... however my concerns are based on the automakers lack of having a simmlar product...I am certain they have the wind tunnel data but none has taken the idea into production????
Even the new Panamera Turbo has a wing that changes the surface not AOA???
Even F1 does not have this practice permitted on the cars????
So when someone shows a street car with a wing that pops up on breaking I am hardly taking it to the bank.
Your input is appreciated.
MA
Since you're a PCA instructor, I'm assuming there wasn't enough information for you to understand the product. What we've done is fit the same form factor of the 997.1 GT3 RS wing with a higher downforce blade that can be actively controlled. Just like the OE wing, ours is less effective with a tail wind (lower apparent wind speed). However, the DF of our wing is greater than the 97.1, and more like the 97.2. Everyone likes an upgrade
As with all wings, setting one Angle of Attack is a compromise between downforce in corners, braking, and reducing drag on straightaways. Attached is an article about the 997.2 that "Smindustries" sent to me. The highlighted sections detail how the user should manually adjust the wing AoA for different race tracks. Our wing simply does this automatically, and for every section of the track. When he contacted us, he said, "I want this, automatically, and better". And then he lent us the RS for a month to make it happen.
As for the speeds, our blade adds 200lbs of DF @ 100mph. DF is exponential with speed (V^2) so it increases greatly from 100. This is very noticeable in feel, and lap times. For example, I was at a Time Attack two weekends ago, they turned the active aero off as an experiment, and slid off the track. The driver is a pro from Japan, and this was the only time he'd slid off track all year.
Please don't hesitate to ask technical questions. I welcome any constructive discussion.
Thank you Greg for the explanation of your great ideas... however my concerns are based on the automakers lack of having a simmlar product...I am certain they have the wind tunnel data but none has taken the idea into production????
Even the new Panamera Turbo has a wing that changes the surface not AOA???
Even F1 does not have this practice permitted on the cars????
So when someone shows a street car with a wing that pops up on breaking I am hardly taking it to the bank.
Your input is appreciated.
MA
10-07-2009, 01:46 PM
#25
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Thank you Greg for the explanation of your great ideas... however my concerns are based on the automakers lack of having a simmlar product...I am certain they have the wind tunnel data but none has taken the idea into production????
Even the new Panamera Turbo has a wing that changes the surface not AOA???
Even F1 does not have this practice permitted on the cars????
So when someone shows a street car with a wing that pops up on breaking I am hardly taking it to the bank.
Your input is appreciated.
MA
Even the new Panamera Turbo has a wing that changes the surface not AOA???
Even F1 does not have this practice permitted on the cars????
So when someone shows a street car with a wing that pops up on breaking I am hardly taking it to the bank.
Your input is appreciated.
MA
The Bugatti Veyron changes height and angle of attack. Adding height to the wing moves it into cleaner air (making it more effective), and adding angle increases the lift coefficient of the airfoil (blade).
The McLaren F1 changes AoA. Here's a quote from Wiki
There is a small rear spoiler on the tail of the vehicle, which is dynamic, the device will adjust dynamically and automatically attempt to balance the center of gravity of the car under braking[7] – which will be shifted forward when the brakes are applied. Upon activation of the spoiler a high pressure zone is obviously created in front of the flap, this high pressure zone is exploited—two air intakes are revealed upon application that will allow the high pressure airflow to enter ducts that route air to aid in cooling the rear brakes.[16] The spoiler increases the overall drag coefficient from 0.32 to 0.39 and is activated at speeds equal to or above 40 mph (64 km/h) by brake line pressure.
Ferrari has also put active aero in the new 458 Italia. Active aero is out there, it's just really expensive
10-07-2009, 10:03 PM
#26
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The Murcielago has some kind of aero change from the rear ram air intakes too. I think though that they might just increase drag as a result and not add any downforce
10-07-2009, 11:38 PM
#27
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We get this question a lot. There are a few cars that run active aero, they're just expensive and not frequently seen, so people don't know they exist.
The Bugatti Veyron changes height and angle of attack. Adding height to the wing moves it into cleaner air (making it more effective), and adding angle increases the lift coefficient of the airfoil (blade).
The McLaren F1 changes AoA. Here's a quote from Wiki
The Panamera, actually changes both wing height and angle of attack. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/25/f...8-years-in-th/
Ferrari has also put active aero in the new 458 Italia. Active aero is out there, it's just really expensive
The Bugatti Veyron changes height and angle of attack. Adding height to the wing moves it into cleaner air (making it more effective), and adding angle increases the lift coefficient of the airfoil (blade).
The McLaren F1 changes AoA. Here's a quote from Wiki
The Panamera, actually changes both wing height and angle of attack. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/06/25/f...8-years-in-th/
Ferrari has also put active aero in the new 458 Italia. Active aero is out there, it's just really expensive
10-12-2009, 02:23 PM
#28
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The Aeromotions people are smart and very responsive. I had the good fortune of exchanging emails re: adding the active wing to my modified VW R32 (thanks Greg and Drew). Apparently hatchbacks have some inherent advantages over coupes. While I have not moved past the discussion stage I am convinced of the effectiveness of the design/product as well as the real time performance. Active aero has been around for many years (who else remembers the Jim Hall Chaparrals in the 1960's?). Aeromotions is bringing the benefits of active aero to the masses in a retrofit-able package. They should be congratulated and supported for their efforts.
10-26-2009, 10:35 AM
#29
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The testing days at VIR were a great success. I was only able to make it down for a few hours due to work constraints, but on the morning of day one, Craig Stanton drove the car with the programming Aeromotions came up with. He had a lot of praise for it, however he asked if they could change the wing's 'tune' so that it provided maximum downforce at all times the vehicle detected lateral acceleration. Rather than maximum downforce during braking and less downforce during turning, he wanted as much as possible until the vehicle was moving straight. When the vehicle was moving straight, he wanted the wing to lay flat in 'low-drag' mode.
The Aeromotions guys pulled an all-nighter and rewrote the code controlling the wing. The first day, he turned a 2:08.5. At the end of the second day with the new tune, Craig turned a 2:06.7 with the wing in static mode. In active mode, he turned a 2:05.1 and had nothing but praise for how much more planted the rear felt in turns. At one point, he said, "This is the best thing since the banana."
All of Craig's times were with Hoosier R6s and a passenger.
Suffice it to say, I'm very pleased with the device. If it can make a professional feel more comfortable to the tune of 1.6 seconds, I know that what I felt wasn't a placebo based upon the cost of the unit.
I'll have more photos and data for you guys later, after I catch up on work. There were two regular guys driving the car as well. Their times were in the 2:09-2:10 range when active, so the deltas for them should be more telling for the average driver.
The Aeromotions guys pulled an all-nighter and rewrote the code controlling the wing. The first day, he turned a 2:08.5. At the end of the second day with the new tune, Craig turned a 2:06.7 with the wing in static mode. In active mode, he turned a 2:05.1 and had nothing but praise for how much more planted the rear felt in turns. At one point, he said, "This is the best thing since the banana."
All of Craig's times were with Hoosier R6s and a passenger.
Suffice it to say, I'm very pleased with the device. If it can make a professional feel more comfortable to the tune of 1.6 seconds, I know that what I felt wasn't a placebo based upon the cost of the unit.
I'll have more photos and data for you guys later, after I catch up on work. There were two regular guys driving the car as well. Their times were in the 2:09-2:10 range when active, so the deltas for them should be more telling for the average driver.
10-26-2009, 12:00 PM
#30
Congrats,
As I said to you on another board, VIR is all about the uphill and downhill esses and feeling planted - that and the 2 highspeed brake zones and you can definitely see why the car will be faster with active aero.
It was also good to see the incar video of turn 1 and how the car gets loose there (lots of stearing angle and a 2nd gear turn) - when I was learning my car that is where I spun twice - your hands just have to be ready in that corner - it is just second nature now - I have also felt tha more wing would be very useful on 17 and 17b as the rear end wants to come around there if you give it too much throttle - add a little downforce and your exit speed is multiplied down the entire front straight + the active wing for deeper braking.
Car looked pretty good otherwise for in car video- what is the alignnment that he drove the car with? - tires were 235/35//19 and 315/30/19 R6s?
Paul
As I said to you on another board, VIR is all about the uphill and downhill esses and feeling planted - that and the 2 highspeed brake zones and you can definitely see why the car will be faster with active aero.
It was also good to see the incar video of turn 1 and how the car gets loose there (lots of stearing angle and a 2nd gear turn) - when I was learning my car that is where I spun twice - your hands just have to be ready in that corner - it is just second nature now - I have also felt tha more wing would be very useful on 17 and 17b as the rear end wants to come around there if you give it too much throttle - add a little downforce and your exit speed is multiplied down the entire front straight + the active wing for deeper braking.
Car looked pretty good otherwise for in car video- what is the alignnment that he drove the car with? - tires were 235/35//19 and 315/30/19 R6s?
Paul