Aftermarket Ceramic Rotors (PCCB Replacement)
08-17-2010, 07:24 AM
#61
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The only thing that should be added to this discussion is to remember that OEM ceramics are still the best in terms of low weight. The solid ceramic rotors are fairly heavy, I would think more than half way to the weight of iron discs.
08-31-2010, 09:11 PM
#64
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Oh, they are certainly available 
The best approach is systemic: to replace rotors, calipers and brake lines as a package. Pricewise it works out better this way too than trying to do rotors alone.
Tom Frederico (Tom@tfent.com) is the US rep and will hook you up with correct kit and pricing. With US $ up against Euro again, this is a good time to pull the trigger if you are inclined to invest in a kit.
I ordered a kit for my RS from Tom (380mm x 40mm thick front, rears are 363mm). No more beveled pad wear, no more pad flipping. No more delaminating rotors. Rotors are not fragile. In the unlikely event a rotor is scored by a rock, it can be sent back and resurfaced. Lifetime, and on to next car, life of the rotor. Pad life said to be 1-2 years with tracking. If you can get your head around the value proposition and don't pass out with the initial sticker shock, there is a case to be made for this investment for a serious tracker.
Not for everyone and I would never claim it to be as such. But a world class solution for those that seek it. I will of course post a review when my kit arrives in another few weeks.
The best approach is systemic: to replace rotors, calipers and brake lines as a package. Pricewise it works out better this way too than trying to do rotors alone.
Tom Frederico (Tom@tfent.com) is the US rep and will hook you up with correct kit and pricing. With US $ up against Euro again, this is a good time to pull the trigger if you are inclined to invest in a kit.
I ordered a kit for my RS from Tom (380mm x 40mm thick front, rears are 363mm). No more beveled pad wear, no more pad flipping. No more delaminating rotors. Rotors are not fragile. In the unlikely event a rotor is scored by a rock, it can be sent back and resurfaced. Lifetime, and on to next car, life of the rotor. Pad life said to be 1-2 years with tracking. If you can get your head around the value proposition and don't pass out with the initial sticker shock, there is a case to be made for this investment for a serious tracker.
Not for everyone and I would never claim it to be as such. But a world class solution for those that seek it. I will of course post a review when my kit arrives in another few weeks.
09-01-2010, 12:58 PM
#66
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these remind me a lot of the K-egg rotors on the CCX. the main difference and reason why the rotors never wear out is because, as mentioned but not explained- the rotor material is homogenous all the way through. The entire rotor therefore has a much higher specific heat index or whatever because it takes longer to heat up, and has more carbon/ceramic material % wise (it is much bulkier mass-wise than the pccb which still has a lot of iron in it)
And according to mr K-egg himself (paraphrasing) :
And as such, in effect, the rotor shouldn't wear down- it actually accumulates extra material from the brake pads and increases in surface thickness as the pads wear away. to service them you'd maybe have to keep them trimmed down after a set of brake pads wears away. this makes brake pedal feel very consistent as the pressure in the system never reaches the variance or gets that icy/green fade/slippery feel.
at least that's what he said when he was trying to sell me one of their cars.
And according to mr K-egg himself (paraphrasing) :
And as such, in effect, the rotor shouldn't wear down- it actually accumulates extra material from the brake pads and increases in surface thickness as the pads wear away. to service them you'd maybe have to keep them trimmed down after a set of brake pads wears away. this makes brake pedal feel very consistent as the pressure in the system never reaches the variance or gets that icy/green fade/slippery feel.
at least that's what he said when he was trying to sell me one of their cars.
09-01-2010, 01:13 PM
#67
That's presumably a gross oversimplification, but it sounds like the Holy Grail of braking systems -- the rotor is almost permanent and the pads are not designed to erode, but to heat up to generate grip, then the whole system converts power to heat and dissipates to the air. Of course, this appears to defy laws of both physics (energy cannot be created or destroyed and no system is 100% efficient) and commerce (no business can profit from the sale of a product or service which need never be renewed.)
09-07-2010, 09:20 AM
#71
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but it sounds like the Holy Grail of braking systems -- the rotor is almost permanent and the pads are not designed to erode, but to heat up to generate grip, then the whole system converts power to heat and dissipates to the air.
I figure OEM rotors (Steel) last 15-20 track days at $2K + after about 100 track days the OEM calipers are fried to a nice dark brown crisp..
Not sure what 4 new calipers cost, I guess you could rebuild them but I see myself changing calipers in 3-4 years..
09-26-2010, 11:48 PM
#72
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Fact. While the base material (Panox) is the same for PCCB (Carbon SGL) and CER (Surface Transforms), the construction is different.
Fact. They do last longer on the track, but not because they wear better. It's because they transfer heat much better, and cannot de-laminate (because they are not a laminate construction).
09-26-2010, 11:52 PM
#73
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Stoptech is not yet close to a ceramic solution.
I have been in contact with MovIt who has developed a very interesting ceramic rotor which sounds in their literature to be technologically superior to OE PCCB in every way. Also pre-bedded pads(!).
As soon as I receive full information (hopefully by tomorrow AM) I will update this thread.
I have been in contact with MovIt who has developed a very interesting ceramic rotor which sounds in their literature to be technologically superior to OE PCCB in every way. Also pre-bedded pads(!).
As soon as I receive full information (hopefully by tomorrow AM) I will update this thread.
09-27-2010, 12:04 AM
#74
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Fact. One of the Renault F1 cars is running MovIt CER rotors on the rear. An important distinction: CER rotors are not carbon fiber rotors, they are Carbon-Ceramic rotors. Carbon-Ceramic rotors operate optimally in a lower temperature range.
09-27-2010, 12:17 AM
#75
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Still sorting out details, RobT posted some pricing above. I went poking around to find some more cost effective (cheaper) rotors because I think I managed to fry my Spyder rotors (
) but MovIt looks to be cost effective not in price but in quality and projected longevity.
The sweet spot seems to be in their kits which include billet calipers which don't flex and therefore don't wear pads in the bevel fashion that us trackers have come to expect from Porsche OE. Also the distributor (very helpful, knowledgeable fellow) noted that in the 50 kits he has sold in 2 years, he has only sold one set of replacement pads.
Advises to expect to get approx 1-2 years out of set of pads with their rotors and calipers with 30 track days per year. Rotors should never wear out.
Their front rotor on RS is 40mm thick.
Full kits include calipers, rotors, hats, brake lines, hardware. Front kit in RS size 380mm runs approx $12,500 (depending on exchange rate, comes from Germany). The rear 350mm is approx $11k.
It is an interesting value proposition. The very best brakes that money can buy (subjective, I know) , which can potentially be taken from car to car over the years, and a jaw dropping initial investment.
) but MovIt looks to be cost effective not in price but in quality and projected longevity. The sweet spot seems to be in their kits which include billet calipers which don't flex and therefore don't wear pads in the bevel fashion that us trackers have come to expect from Porsche OE. Also the distributor (very helpful, knowledgeable fellow) noted that in the 50 kits he has sold in 2 years, he has only sold one set of replacement pads.
Advises to expect to get approx 1-2 years out of set of pads with their rotors and calipers with 30 track days per year. Rotors should never wear out.
Their front rotor on RS is 40mm thick.
Full kits include calipers, rotors, hats, brake lines, hardware. Front kit in RS size 380mm runs approx $12,500 (depending on exchange rate, comes from Germany). The rear 350mm is approx $11k.
It is an interesting value proposition. The very best brakes that money can buy (subjective, I know) , which can potentially be taken from car to car over the years, and a jaw dropping initial investment.
Fact. The Gen III CER rotors are 40mm thick. Gen III are sold only as a full kit with the MovIt billet calipers because: rotors are too thick for PCCB calipers, pads are larger (not thicker), and the MovIt calipers are designed differently to eliminate/mitigate uneven pad wear.