Aftermarket Ceramic Rotors (PCCB Replacement)
09-27-2010, 12:23 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
09-27-2010, 12:52 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Check this thread:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...rembo+pccb+gtr
Several options discussed, including info from a MovIt customer. There is another MovIt customer testing in his Ferrari (in Texas), over 2,500 track miles with the same brake pads.
Don't waste your money, go with a proven race system (Stoptech STR or Brembo GTR) with steel rotors, they can be as light as the stock PCCB system, but cheaper to get at first, and cheaper on the long run.
Also check the latest European Car Magazine, they just swapped a 2010 GT3 big red brake system to Stoptech STR, nice review and good weight savings.
The Boxster/Cayman use smaller PCCB rotors, so more reasons to replace the entire system.
PCCB don't last that long with intense track use. I have info from GT3 Cup teams and F430 Challenge teams. 12-20 hours total time for Challenge teams to replace CCB (they replace them when they are at 60% worn out, so they could last a total of 20-33 hours). For European Porsche GT3 Cup teams, around 30 hours. This is for car with slicks driven on race conditions. DE conditions with lower grip R6 or other DOT tires should increase life expectancy of CCB rotors (twice as much is my guess). Street use (American style) has virtually no wear on the PCCB rotors, and they could last as long as Porsche advertised initially (300,000 kms).
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...rembo+pccb+gtr
Several options discussed, including info from a MovIt customer. There is another MovIt customer testing in his Ferrari (in Texas), over 2,500 track miles with the same brake pads.
Don't waste your money, go with a proven race system (Stoptech STR or Brembo GTR) with steel rotors, they can be as light as the stock PCCB system, but cheaper to get at first, and cheaper on the long run.
Also check the latest European Car Magazine, they just swapped a 2010 GT3 big red brake system to Stoptech STR, nice review and good weight savings.
The Boxster/Cayman use smaller PCCB rotors, so more reasons to replace the entire system.
PCCB don't last that long with intense track use. I have info from GT3 Cup teams and F430 Challenge teams. 12-20 hours total time for Challenge teams to replace CCB (they replace them when they are at 60% worn out, so they could last a total of 20-33 hours). For European Porsche GT3 Cup teams, around 30 hours. This is for car with slicks driven on race conditions. DE conditions with lower grip R6 or other DOT tires should increase life expectancy of CCB rotors (twice as much is my guess). Street use (American style) has virtually no wear on the PCCB rotors, and they could last as long as Porsche advertised initially (300,000 kms).
09-27-2010, 01:04 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Those fasteners are not the (patented) McLaren "anti-squeal" type -- I wonder how these things behave as far as alignment and noise etc.
That's a pretty much generic Bremo-esque caliper -- the weights on the pads suggest they've tried to suppress squeal and vibration.
Given the 380 and 396 (!) sizes, what's the weight of the rotor and the weight of that caliper -- does Movit offer any comparison pics of Porsche PCCB (2010 model year) versus these beefy buggers?
That's a pretty much generic Bremo-esque caliper -- the weights on the pads suggest they've tried to suppress squeal and vibration.
Given the 380 and 396 (!) sizes, what's the weight of the rotor and the weight of that caliper -- does Movit offer any comparison pics of Porsche PCCB (2010 model year) versus these beefy buggers?
Fiction. MovIt calipers are not Brembo calipers. Note the strengthening steel through-bolts in the ribs to reduce caliper flex. These are 1-piece billet calipers, not 2-piece calipers.
Fiction. MovIt sources their pads from Pagid, just as Porsche does for PCCB. The compounds are different, and proprietary to each. Pagid installs the counterweights.
09-27-2010, 01:13 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Love the spreadsheet !!
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
I use the DE session duration X # of sessions. On a typical East Coast and West Coast track day (PCA, Speed Ventures, BMWCCA, etc), I get 4 sessions of 20 minutes average, or 80 minutes of track time.
With DE use, that could be 50 track days at Laguna Seca for PCCB. At 5 track days per year, stock PCCB rotors should be good for 10 years. However, once we start dealing with long track time (some clubs run up to 4 hours of track time or 240 minutes), the same stock PCCB would barely last 10 days, and if we are running that many events per year or more, PCCB can be very expensive.
I like the MovIT rotors re-using the stock Porsche hats and fasteners, but I like the Brembo GTR and Stoptech STR much more (more efficient, consistent, and cheaper).
Here is some more information on MovIt ceramic brakes from RBM (Bob) at f-chat from January 2010:
"I am collecting wear data on Movit CER (carbon ceramic) brakes for the Manufacturer (Movit). Here's an excerpt I thought may be of interest on this thread:
"I finally had to change the first set of front Sport pads on the CER rotors. Here’s the data:
New pad thickness = 10mm
Use = 19 track days; 2644.8 miles
(Texas World Speedway, 2.9 miles, average = 4x 24-minute track sessions per day, 12 laps per session, 139.2 miles per day)
Thickness remaining on worn Sport pads:
Rear
Right Rear Inner = 7-8mm*
Right Rear Outer = 8-8.5mm*
Left Rear Inner = 8mm
Left Rear Outer = 8-9mm*
Front
Right Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Right Front Outer = 5-6mm*
Left Front Inner = 5-6mm*
Left Front Outer = 6-7mm*
*pads were tapered at leading edge
No measurable wear on rotors.
I replaced the front pads. I anticipate another 2500 miles of track use from the rear pads. Front Sport pad wear has been significantly better than PCCB pad, which averaged 6 track days per set "
CER rotors are 350mm x 34mm front; 350mm x 28mm rear. Car is 3500 pounds (Porsche 996 Turbo, full wet w/driver). CER rotors are made from same carbon-ceramic material as Ferrari and Porsche PCCB rotors; Panox from Carbon SGL in Germany. But the construction method is different; hence the better wear characteristics."
09-27-2010, 01:19 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
Fiction. The MovIt CER Gen III rotor has the same composition as the Gen I and Gen II rotors. The improved durability comes from the increased thickness and the increased radial ventilation to transfer heat. MovIt used to offer three pad compounds. They now offer only one compound; the sport pad. The sport pad is what I have been using with my Gen I rotors.
09-27-2010, 01:25 AM
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I had a chance to talk to Bob a time or two as he has been hammering the Movit brakes at TWS. Last time we spoke (a year ago), we discussed the life difference between the Porsche and Movit CCB systems. If you look at your Porsche rotors from the side, you can see that there is a (literally) paper thin braking surface laminated on the structural substrate. That is why they are delicate, and can be ruined easily - if you wear or knock a hole through the braking layer, the rotor starts to degrade rapidly, because the thick structural layer does not work well as a friction surface.
The Movit rotor is a monolithic, single material. If you wear it down, the material below the surface is the same as the surface. This should provide ridiculously long life (approaching the life of the car, even with track use). It was thought that you could even fix an uneven face (if you wore through the pad or caught a rock) by grinding it smooth again.
Before you rush to spend $25k, please keep in mind that this is my recollection of a trackside conversation. You might want to verify the facts.....
The Movit rotor is a monolithic, single material. If you wear it down, the material below the surface is the same as the surface. This should provide ridiculously long life (approaching the life of the car, even with track use). It was thought that you could even fix an uneven face (if you wore through the pad or caught a rock) by grinding it smooth again.
Before you rush to spend $25k, please keep in mind that this is my recollection of a trackside conversation. You might want to verify the facts.....
09-27-2010, 01:55 AM
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these remind me a lot of the K-egg rotors on the CCX. the main difference and reason why the rotors never wear out is because, as mentioned but not explained- the rotor material is homogenous all the way through. The entire rotor therefore has a much higher specific heat index or whatever because it takes longer to heat up, and has more carbon/ceramic material % wise (it is much bulkier mass-wise than the pccb which still has a lot of iron in it)
And according to mr K-egg himself (paraphrasing) :
And as such, in effect, the rotor shouldn't wear down- it actually accumulates extra material from the brake pads and increases in surface thickness as the pads wear away. to service them you'd maybe have to keep them trimmed down after a set of brake pads wears away. this makes brake pedal feel very consistent as the pressure in the system never reaches the variance or gets that icy/green fade/slippery feel.
at least that's what he said when he was trying to sell me one of their cars.
And according to mr K-egg himself (paraphrasing) :
And as such, in effect, the rotor shouldn't wear down- it actually accumulates extra material from the brake pads and increases in surface thickness as the pads wear away. to service them you'd maybe have to keep them trimmed down after a set of brake pads wears away. this makes brake pedal feel very consistent as the pressure in the system never reaches the variance or gets that icy/green fade/slippery feel.
at least that's what he said when he was trying to sell me one of their cars.
Fiction. Pad material can accumulate in the minute pockets between the cross-weave on the surface of the CER rotor. See close-up photos of CER rotor on this thread. It washes off with a hose and can be blown clean with compressed air. The CER rotors do not get thicker with use. They do not fade or warp. As the pads wear down, the pedal can get soft/spongy, and you can feel the normal vibration associated with thin pads. Brake fluid can still boil for all the normal reasons (low grade Dot 3 fluid, old moisture-saturated fluid, contaminated fluid, etc.).
09-27-2010, 10:33 PM
#85
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RBM- Welcome to the Rennlist forums, and thank you for the posting contributions! Always better to get a first hand account of things. Sounds like you are very happy with your Gen I's?
I have been a huge fan of Porsche's PCCB's (lower rotating mass/unsprung weight) for a long time.
But...I am sick and tired of mucking with pad flips, quickly wearing pads, freight-train style squealing, beveled pads, nasty looking rotors (delamination), and poor cold pad performance, therefore I made the decision some weeks ago to order a "bespoke" MovIt system for my RS.
Well, glad to hear that I suppose? 
You would need a very big/heavy/fast car to justify a 390mm. Like a Bentley. Otherwise you would never get any heat into it.
If the rotors truly last the life of the car, and the next 2-3 cars. The pads 1-2 years with tracking. No freight train stopping noises. No more pad flips or beveling. No more Code Brown during hard braking with cold pads. No more rotor delamination (rotor surface turns to 80 grit sandpaper). Then there is no question at all. Period.
I have bought into the claims, and I will be the acid test. There is no reason at all to not believe the claims being made. If they were false, we would hear of it from unsatisfied customers.
I have been a huge fan of Porsche's PCCB's (lower rotating mass/unsprung weight) for a long time.
But...I am sick and tired of mucking with pad flips, quickly wearing pads, freight-train style squealing, beveled pads, nasty looking rotors (delamination), and poor cold pad performance, therefore I made the decision some weeks ago to order a "bespoke" MovIt system for my RS.
You would need a very big/heavy/fast car to justify a 390mm. Like a Bentley. Otherwise you would never get any heat into it.
I have bought into the claims, and I will be the acid test. There is no reason at all to not believe the claims being made. If they were false, we would hear of it from unsatisfied customers.
09-29-2010, 11:25 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
CER rotor sizes available:
322mm
342mm
(I have 348mm)
370mm
380mm
396mm
MovIt informed me that they offer a 396mm Gen III kit for Porsche, but I am wary until I take measurements for myself. Porsche uses 380mm PCCB and they don't leave much margin on the table. For example, if you go from 348mm PCCB to 355mm AP rotors on the 996 GT2 with stock wheels, then you start trapping debris between the wheel and the caliper, really mucking up the works.
09-29-2010, 11:44 AM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
"Worth the expense" depends on your use of your brakes, which determines whether you will reach your break-even point. As I mentioned, I went through 8 PCCB rotors ($32,000) in one year of track events. I have since used my MovIts for 17 months, with no measurable wear. So, I have far exceeded my break-even point already. YMMV.
As far as time/effort, that is easy to measure. You invest the time or $$ to install them once. That's it. You never make that investment again (on that car), even if you place no value on your time (highly unlikely if you are in the target market for ceramic brakes). Also, you never risk losing time/$$ invested in a track weekend because your rotors wore out mid-weekend and you did not have spares.
09-29-2010, 12:16 PM
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MovIt - Fact or Fiction?
A similar argument could be made for buying a retired space shuttle from NASA, stripping it for parts, and putting them in your car. The technology and performance would appear to be miraculous. But acheiving a cost-benefit balance would be difficult in many cases today. However, as fuel costs increase (either economic or environmental), more and more "space age" technologies will reach the break-even point on cost-benefit.
08-05-2011, 09:19 PM
#90
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My Carrera GT PCCB rotors are starting to look pretty crappy and the pads make a scuffing noise when I apply the brakes in situations that are quiet enough to hear them. My Porsche dealer says I might get a few more track events out of them, but they are showing surface de-lamination and won't last forever. This is somewhat off-putting since the parts quote is circa $22,000 for 4 rotors, then it is PLUS installation.
I have been having an e-mail conversation with Mov'It USA and it seems they have a GT2/GT3RS-based solution that includes rotors, calipers, pads and a special emergency brake caliper for the rear to fit the Carrera GT. Their price is North of the OEM rotor replacement, but not too much for their whole caboodle.
My question for any users of Mov'It ceramic brake systems is how they feel and respond on the street. Do they behave in a normal way, or would you who have them only recommend them for the track?
I have been having an e-mail conversation with Mov'It USA and it seems they have a GT2/GT3RS-based solution that includes rotors, calipers, pads and a special emergency brake caliper for the rear to fit the Carrera GT. Their price is North of the OEM rotor replacement, but not too much for their whole caboodle.
My question for any users of Mov'It ceramic brake systems is how they feel and respond on the street. Do they behave in a normal way, or would you who have them only recommend them for the track?