Whats it like to live with a GT3RS
07-18-2011, 09:57 AM
#76
Rennlist Member
Are you really suggesting that the normal maintenance schedule for autobahn-driven cars involves replacing rotors every 2000 miles? Is that accurate?
07-18-2011, 10:47 AM
#77
Bmardini
I have no quibble with most of what you say, however, if you don't get as much speed off as possible as soon as possible, your options as you approach the cars in front are severely limited. all too often, dynamic groups of cars travelling at 120 mph or so can turn into an impenetrable mass at 50 mph, you don't want to arrive on their rear bumpers doing 100 mph thinking you only have to redeuce speed a little more, when you really have to get off another 50 mph.
Your argument about braking hard on racing brakes holds no water (bit like the desert), racing brakes are almost never cold, whilst brakes on the Autobahn are often chilly if not exactly cold. My point about the lads hooning round Hockenheim was to illustrate how hopeless even leading manufacturers can be about brakes. (If I talk to German engineers in English about brakes, they don't listen, if I say the same thing in German, they listen)
You don't have to be travelling in a high speed convoy to need to worry about the cars behind, cars which you passed some time ago catch up real fast in these situations, most people hit their hazard lights immediately they begin to stop, and turn them off as soon as the following car(s) turn on their's (to show you have noticed their actions).
I am making two points -
BTW, covering 500m in 6 seconds (300 kph), means, in my book, that you don't have much time to consider you options, and that getting 'quite a lot of speed off "real soon now"', provides you with more leisure to choose what to do. Some of the time an infinitessimal adjustment of speed as early as possible allows us to arrive, at speed, at the rear of the obstructing vehicle just as it pulls over, but quite often, circumstances change and your options are limited.
i didn't realise that UAE had got liimits, at leat the roads will be better that the States and UK, where many country lanes are not scheduled for full resurfacing for over 150 years.
R+C
I have no quibble with most of what you say, however, if you don't get as much speed off as possible as soon as possible, your options as you approach the cars in front are severely limited. all too often, dynamic groups of cars travelling at 120 mph or so can turn into an impenetrable mass at 50 mph, you don't want to arrive on their rear bumpers doing 100 mph thinking you only have to redeuce speed a little more, when you really have to get off another 50 mph.
Your argument about braking hard on racing brakes holds no water (bit like the desert), racing brakes are almost never cold, whilst brakes on the Autobahn are often chilly if not exactly cold. My point about the lads hooning round Hockenheim was to illustrate how hopeless even leading manufacturers can be about brakes. (If I talk to German engineers in English about brakes, they don't listen, if I say the same thing in German, they listen)
You don't have to be travelling in a high speed convoy to need to worry about the cars behind, cars which you passed some time ago catch up real fast in these situations, most people hit their hazard lights immediately they begin to stop, and turn them off as soon as the following car(s) turn on their's (to show you have noticed their actions).
I am making two points -
- In the first place the GT3 is made for the domestic German environment and developed for other markets, so the concern about high speed braking is entirely relevant to the car's makeup.
- The kind of braking that occurs at high speeds on the Autobahn causes severe wear and even transformational change to the rotors (and pad surfaces). This is not as obvious (although the colour change is remarkable) as the damage done by continuous and repetitive braking on a race track, but it often has an even more deleterious effect on braking performance.
BTW, covering 500m in 6 seconds (300 kph), means, in my book, that you don't have much time to consider you options, and that getting 'quite a lot of speed off "real soon now"', provides you with more leisure to choose what to do. Some of the time an infinitessimal adjustment of speed as early as possible allows us to arrive, at speed, at the rear of the obstructing vehicle just as it pulls over, but quite often, circumstances change and your options are limited.
i didn't realise that UAE had got liimits, at leat the roads will be better that the States and UK, where many country lanes are not scheduled for full resurfacing for over 150 years.
R+C
I was making a literal example. You can put any racing brake on most cars, drive them up to 180mph, brake hard and you will shock the rotors (unless the car doesn't stop, which is more likely on a cold racing brake)
To your second point, unfortunately I have no reference point in terms of 'wear' rates due to thermal shock and wear rates due to track work. I tell you what though; from my experience (and am pretty sure EVERYONE who has ever taken their own car onto a racetrack), after half a dozen track days you will most certainly notice your brake wear, whereas street GT3s will go thousands and thousands of km without issue if their lives are only spent on the highway. Again, this from my own experience and from those who I know who track / don't track their cars.
UAE got cameras - a LOT of them, and the police are actually required to stop you now if you are speeding. The fines and penalties are a lot stiffer, they've introduced the black point system, and if you are caught doing 70kph over the limit your car is impounded for 1 month. Most decent radar/laser detectors will make life easier, but you really need to be away from the city to break the "camera every km" cycle.
Which is a funny point now that I think about it! Brakes on sports cars in the UAE from about 2001-2008 would experience pretty heavy braking every 5-6km (interval between cameras, their acquisition range was only a few meters so it was quite funny - and dangerous - to try and brake at the last minute). At that time I had my C2S. Braking from 240 --> 140 was very common to avoid the fines. Was an everyday thing.
That same car spent a few days on the track. Guess which activity roasted my brakes faster...
07-18-2011, 11:01 AM
#78
Rennlist Member
In summary, what I think is being said by NC is that the full potential of various aspects of even a GT3/RS can be used performance wise if you are in the correct parts of the world to exploit their potential on the street dispite the fact that some have argued to the contrary...
IMO, the GT3 is the ideal car for someone wanting a GT# car without intention to track... It gives you that feel of something special with the sounds, noises and feel that a carrera or turbo just couldn't give yet retains enough usability and practicality (for a supercar) to allow you to enjoy the experience... Refined raw and wild beasts as opposed to refined and super luxurious cruisers... Thats what the GT cars are. Lets face it though, most of us buying GT# cars are old enough to be wearing hearing aids... Just turn them down and problem solved
IMO, the GT3 is the ideal car for someone wanting a GT# car without intention to track... It gives you that feel of something special with the sounds, noises and feel that a carrera or turbo just couldn't give yet retains enough usability and practicality (for a supercar) to allow you to enjoy the experience... Refined raw and wild beasts as opposed to refined and super luxurious cruisers... Thats what the GT cars are. Lets face it though, most of us buying GT# cars are old enough to be wearing hearing aids... Just turn them down and problem solved
07-18-2011, 11:02 AM
#79
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
-- wow....just what did i get started with a simple "whats it like to live with.."
-- i wonder, will you guys throw me out, or will i get as good a feedback as i've gotten so far when i ask........
-- "whats it like to live with a 458 ferrari......and which makes more sense.....
-- i already know how the ferrari wins over the heart, and the porsche wins over the mind, so it seems fairly obvious the gt3rs wins hands down......but can anyone share "Nugget" style viewpoint on the ferrari as well as he has on the porsche....or does a thread exist ?
-- i'm going into hiding in case anyone starts throwing rotten fruits and veggies at me.......
-- i wonder, will you guys throw me out, or will i get as good a feedback as i've gotten so far when i ask........
-- "whats it like to live with a 458 ferrari......and which makes more sense.....
-- i already know how the ferrari wins over the heart, and the porsche wins over the mind, so it seems fairly obvious the gt3rs wins hands down......but can anyone share "Nugget" style viewpoint on the ferrari as well as he has on the porsche....or does a thread exist ?
-- i'm going into hiding in case anyone starts throwing rotten fruits and veggies at me.......
07-18-2011, 11:15 AM
#80
Rennlist Member
The differences between a GT3 and RS matter only for track use. I own a GT3... It is awesome to live with!!! Stimulates the sensors like a Fcar with the great sounding exhaust, engine and awesome firmness and rawness. Yet its as comfortable and easy to drive lexus or MB or anything else luxurious you may want to compare it to. Limitations are that its wide **** makes it prone to dints from wayward doors, low front can limit access unless you go front lift system and some visibility issues out the rear. I would have no issue with this as a daily drive and can think of no other supercar I'd rather have... You won't be disappointed but don't pass up experiencing such an awesome car at the track even just once!
F458 is more clinical and less involved because computers control so many aspects of the drive. Its blinding fast however... The GT# cars are more involved and require skill to get full potential... Check out youtube, many comparisons of RS and F458 done, most notably the one with Chris Harris...
Oh yeh, F458s love to spontaneously combust! Buy a huge fire extinguisher... Lol...
F458 is more clinical and less involved because computers control so many aspects of the drive. Its blinding fast however... The GT# cars are more involved and require skill to get full potential... Check out youtube, many comparisons of RS and F458 done, most notably the one with Chris Harris...
Oh yeh, F458s love to spontaneously combust! Buy a huge fire extinguisher... Lol...
07-18-2011, 11:33 AM
#81
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
"spontaneously combust".....lol....yikes !! 
07-18-2011, 12:02 PM
#82
I've owned a number of interesting cars -- Elise, Morgan, various Porsches, also an S2000 very briefly.
As others have said, it is -- in some respects -- are car without equal. The heritage, experience, durability are just rarely found in one offering.
On the other hand, the performance envelope is rather expansive and there is a limit to what one can sanely do on public roads. Even though the car has amazing limits, people in other vehicles (and wildlife) do not expect such a projectile. So, it some ways, a really responsive sports car with lower limits, like the S2000, Boxster/Cayman may be more fun because it's "sweet spot" is more accessible. I recently owned an RS America, which I think was more fun just driving the twisties in a spirited but restrained manner. On track, it's a different story.
I will say the GT3 is a special car, and sitting in it, or slowly driving in traffic is also enjoyable, just knowing what went into making such a car.
As others have said, it is -- in some respects -- are car without equal. The heritage, experience, durability are just rarely found in one offering.
On the other hand, the performance envelope is rather expansive and there is a limit to what one can sanely do on public roads. Even though the car has amazing limits, people in other vehicles (and wildlife) do not expect such a projectile. So, it some ways, a really responsive sports car with lower limits, like the S2000, Boxster/Cayman may be more fun because it's "sweet spot" is more accessible. I recently owned an RS America, which I think was more fun just driving the twisties in a spirited but restrained manner. On track, it's a different story.
I will say the GT3 is a special car, and sitting in it, or slowly driving in traffic is also enjoyable, just knowing what went into making such a car.
It is a great car, and unfortunately for you, if you ask the question, you probably already have decided...Anyway if I am wrong, do look at the GTS and perhaps also the GT3, because you only really get the most of the RS on the track. The rest of the time, you drive it to keep the fluids going around the mechanical parts, and you wish you were on a track....
Agreed completely. If you're not a track junkie or don't think that you'd like to become a track junkie then you should skip the GT3. The benefits of the GT3 are impossible to exploit on the street. Heck, the differences are even difficult to even discern on the street, and the downsides are many. With no track plans, buy a GTS and it'll be just as thrilling and a lot more liveable.
That said, I've been daily driving a GT3 RS for almost two years now. A link:
And two threads from the archives:
That said, I've been daily driving a GT3 RS for almost two years now. A link:
And two threads from the archives:
I think the GT3 RS is an excellent choice for someone who wants to drive more on the track, but doesn't want the costs and troubles of dealing with a full blow GT3 Cup.
The main problem with the RS is that street driving is painful, as the car wants to go fast. And unless you break laws, you're limited in how much fun you can have. So if you get one, best to do at least 1 track event per month. Or else you're not really maximizing ownership.
The GT3 is for those wanting a more raw street car that will occasionally see some track time.
I'd say if you can swing it, get one. It's really a purists car that is simply magical to drive. Words just can't explain what Porsche has done with it's GT cars. DO IT!!!!
The main problem with the RS is that street driving is painful, as the car wants to go fast. And unless you break laws, you're limited in how much fun you can have. So if you get one, best to do at least 1 track event per month. Or else you're not really maximizing ownership.
The GT3 is for those wanting a more raw street car that will occasionally see some track time.
I'd say if you can swing it, get one. It's really a purists car that is simply magical to drive. Words just can't explain what Porsche has done with it's GT cars. DO IT!!!!
IMO if you're not going to track it at all I would stick w/ the S2k or get a lotus for the 1/2 the price even if you have the money to burn. The only time I drive my RS on the street is to get gas or keep the battery charged and there are plenty of back roads to run around on in my area. My daily is an RX7/3rd gen and it's much more fun to drive, not as obnoxious and I don't feel guilty racking up the miles. Putting street miles on any GT3 is pretty much a waste of car and money but again if you have it to waste then go for it. If I could afford it and didn't mind looking like a jackass I'd daily some sort of super car but not a GT3 because it's loud, snorts, grunts, shakes, rattles, it's big/wide for a sports car, isn't nimble/it's heavy, etc...etc....
PS Tracking this car KICKS EVERYTHINGs *** but have a big tire budget
Extremely fun car to drive at high speeds which is the only thing it was designed for.
07-18-2011, 02:40 PM
#83
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
-- i have no plans to track a car.....it would be purely for driving pleasure/fun/excitement....i recognize it has the raw edge of a race car, which probably does not bode too well on the street.....but i sure see alot of them rolling around (north of nyc) and they hardly look like they've been to the track, and the owners sure are smiling........i haven't heard any one of them say anything truly bad about it......i have heard its a pain in traffic, but doable, sucks being stopped at a light (sometimes), and scrapes everywhere "around the NY area".....i mean thats pretty much a given.......so what......you can't tell me everyone driving their daily driver porsches, even though they are more street/user friendly is driving them to their limit.....even on the track most owners aren't doing that......ok....there can be a handful of guys that really know what they are doing, and have fun with it, doing laps or in competition.....thats understandable.......but most of them are probably street cars - regardless of what the purists might wish to believe........(i certainly could be wrong)
-- now i wish i could just pull the trigger and buy this thing
-- now i wish i could just pull the trigger and buy this thing
Last edited by RD16RR; 07-18-2011 at 02:42 PM. Reason: mis-spelled porsche
07-18-2011, 03:55 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
I guess the bottom line is this -- the difference in handling and performance, on the street, between a GT3 and a "regular" Carrera 2S is minimal to nonexistent. At 8/10ths of the limit they're pretty much the same experience. It's only at 9/10ths and beyond, at extra-legal speeds, that the differences come into play.
That's the honest truth. My street-driving experience didn't really change at all when I sold my C2S and bought the GT3 RS. The C2S wasn't any less fun to toss around, it wasn't any less fun to run on the streets and highways, it wasn't any less great at street driving. For reals. It was quite a bit less of a hassle on the street, but that better livability didn't come at the expense of street performance.
Absent track miles, there's not much upside to a GT3, from a technical and performance standpoint.
Now, sure, from a heritage and aspirational standpoint the GT3 RS is leagues beyond a "regular" 911. If you're willing to endure the compromised comfort and utility solely for the sake of aesthetics then that's your call. I just don't think it really translates to an actual difference in driving pleasure/fun/excitement. Really. I honestly think that.
You can't hoon around a street corner any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S. You can't pass someone on the highway any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S (not measurably, at least). On the street you won't be stopping any quicker, turning any sharper, or blowing any more doors off at traffic lights in either car.
Here's the bottom line (and this will probably get a bit scrolly):
When you're buying cars that cost upwards of $100K, there stops being a "good, better, best." Porsche make 30 different flavors of 911. You simply cannot put them in a line from worst to best. The buying philosophy that works for more pedestrian cars just doesn't work once you cross a certain price point.
If you're buying a BMW 3 Series it's simple. You make the line of cars from worst to best, decide what you want to spend, pick that spot on the line and Bob's your uncle -- you've got your car.
With a 911, what? Which is better? A Turbo S or a GT3 RS? The answer is elusive -- they're two different cars built for very different things. Which is better, a Turbo S or a GTS? Again -- that's a tough call. Turbo S is dramatically faster, but also less fun in the twisties and less "pure." I'd never council an S2K guy to buy a Turbo -- you almost certainly want to stick to the RWD flavors of the 911.
With the GT3 and GT3 RS you've really got a very focused set of options and features. These are cars that are built for the track. That doesn't mean they're "better" than the more street-oriented Porsches, it just means they're a more specialized tool. Just like the Turbo is aimed an entirely different set of capabilities.
I'm the world's worst offender for always wanting to buy "the best" of whatever I'm buying. When selecting products I always start at the top of any model range and work my way down if budget or circumstances demand. I get it, I really do. It's easy to see those historic "RS" letters and assume the same approach with the GT3 RS. Isn't Porsche saying it's "the best" 911? But it isn't, really. It's a 911 for track junkies, which isn't the same thing at all.
This reality is evidenced by the startling number of GT3s you can find on the secondary market, owned for a year and sold or traded with just a few thousand miles or less. Guys get the GT3 then wonder what they were thinking because on the street it's just not any faster or more fun than their old C2S. Sometime around the third replacement chin spoiler they realize that they're not really getting much satisfaction from knowing that the brakes have extra cooling ducts or that the engine is "super durable" or that they could, in a fit of lunacy, dial in 2.5 degrees of negative camber up front without needing to buy aftermarket suspension hardware. So they trade in on a GTS or a Turbo and really get "the best" 911.
And I know that through this whole thread it probably sounds like I'm trying to deter you from buying a GT3, but really that's not where I'm coming from. I grew up with posters of the '73 RS on my bedroom wall, lusted after the RS America, and made squeals of joy like an adolescent schoolgirl when the 996 GT3 hit the US market. As much as I love these rear-engined quirks of racing, I'm a sucker for the Porsche marque and pomp.
Orange wheels and that "RS" script on the side of the car give me a thrill -- and if you're in that boat then you should just suck it up and buy the "RS" because otherwise you'll forever be wondering. Maybe yours will end up for resale 12 months later like many do, but at least then you'll know it wasn't for you. If that's where your head is then there's only one actual solution. Sometimes it's impossible to escape the siren song of marketing and heritage.
But you did say you wanted a candid response, so I'm being honest. These cars aren't that awesome on the street. A GTS will be 99.9995% as thrilling on the street, without a lot of the nuisance. If I didn't track my car I'd ditch and and get a GTS in a heartbeat. Same street experience, really, without the additional hassle and expense. For a street-only buyer, ignoring the emotional component of the purchase, I think a GT3 is a poor choice.
But if you buy the GT3 I'll be the first to wave and gawk and smile at you. Just be ready for me to never stop shutting up about getting you out to the track to really see what it can do.
That's the honest truth. My street-driving experience didn't really change at all when I sold my C2S and bought the GT3 RS. The C2S wasn't any less fun to toss around, it wasn't any less fun to run on the streets and highways, it wasn't any less great at street driving. For reals. It was quite a bit less of a hassle on the street, but that better livability didn't come at the expense of street performance.
Absent track miles, there's not much upside to a GT3, from a technical and performance standpoint.
Now, sure, from a heritage and aspirational standpoint the GT3 RS is leagues beyond a "regular" 911. If you're willing to endure the compromised comfort and utility solely for the sake of aesthetics then that's your call. I just don't think it really translates to an actual difference in driving pleasure/fun/excitement. Really. I honestly think that.
You can't hoon around a street corner any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S. You can't pass someone on the highway any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S (not measurably, at least). On the street you won't be stopping any quicker, turning any sharper, or blowing any more doors off at traffic lights in either car.
Here's the bottom line (and this will probably get a bit scrolly):
When you're buying cars that cost upwards of $100K, there stops being a "good, better, best." Porsche make 30 different flavors of 911. You simply cannot put them in a line from worst to best. The buying philosophy that works for more pedestrian cars just doesn't work once you cross a certain price point.
If you're buying a BMW 3 Series it's simple. You make the line of cars from worst to best, decide what you want to spend, pick that spot on the line and Bob's your uncle -- you've got your car.
With a 911, what? Which is better? A Turbo S or a GT3 RS? The answer is elusive -- they're two different cars built for very different things. Which is better, a Turbo S or a GTS? Again -- that's a tough call. Turbo S is dramatically faster, but also less fun in the twisties and less "pure." I'd never council an S2K guy to buy a Turbo -- you almost certainly want to stick to the RWD flavors of the 911.
With the GT3 and GT3 RS you've really got a very focused set of options and features. These are cars that are built for the track. That doesn't mean they're "better" than the more street-oriented Porsches, it just means they're a more specialized tool. Just like the Turbo is aimed an entirely different set of capabilities.
I'm the world's worst offender for always wanting to buy "the best" of whatever I'm buying. When selecting products I always start at the top of any model range and work my way down if budget or circumstances demand. I get it, I really do. It's easy to see those historic "RS" letters and assume the same approach with the GT3 RS. Isn't Porsche saying it's "the best" 911? But it isn't, really. It's a 911 for track junkies, which isn't the same thing at all.
This reality is evidenced by the startling number of GT3s you can find on the secondary market, owned for a year and sold or traded with just a few thousand miles or less. Guys get the GT3 then wonder what they were thinking because on the street it's just not any faster or more fun than their old C2S. Sometime around the third replacement chin spoiler they realize that they're not really getting much satisfaction from knowing that the brakes have extra cooling ducts or that the engine is "super durable" or that they could, in a fit of lunacy, dial in 2.5 degrees of negative camber up front without needing to buy aftermarket suspension hardware. So they trade in on a GTS or a Turbo and really get "the best" 911.
And I know that through this whole thread it probably sounds like I'm trying to deter you from buying a GT3, but really that's not where I'm coming from. I grew up with posters of the '73 RS on my bedroom wall, lusted after the RS America, and made squeals of joy like an adolescent schoolgirl when the 996 GT3 hit the US market. As much as I love these rear-engined quirks of racing, I'm a sucker for the Porsche marque and pomp.
Orange wheels and that "RS" script on the side of the car give me a thrill -- and if you're in that boat then you should just suck it up and buy the "RS" because otherwise you'll forever be wondering. Maybe yours will end up for resale 12 months later like many do, but at least then you'll know it wasn't for you. If that's where your head is then there's only one actual solution. Sometimes it's impossible to escape the siren song of marketing and heritage.
But you did say you wanted a candid response, so I'm being honest. These cars aren't that awesome on the street. A GTS will be 99.9995% as thrilling on the street, without a lot of the nuisance. If I didn't track my car I'd ditch and and get a GTS in a heartbeat. Same street experience, really, without the additional hassle and expense. For a street-only buyer, ignoring the emotional component of the purchase, I think a GT3 is a poor choice.
But if you buy the GT3 I'll be the first to wave and gawk and smile at you. Just be ready for me to never stop shutting up about getting you out to the track to really see what it can do.
07-18-2011, 03:55 PM
#86
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
-- no problem really......please feel free to post whatever you like.....
07-18-2011, 04:07 PM
#87
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I guess the bottom line is this -- the difference in handling and performance, on the street, between a GT3 and a "regular" Carrera 2S is minimal to nonexistent. At 8/10ths of the limit they're pretty much the same experience. It's only at 9/10ths and beyond, at extra-legal speeds, that the differences come into play.
That's the honest truth. My street-driving experience didn't really change at all when I sold my C2S and bought the GT3 RS. The C2S wasn't any less fun to toss around, it wasn't any less fun to run on the streets and highways, it wasn't any less great at street driving. For reals. It was quite a bit less of a hassle on the street, but that better livability didn't come at the expense of street performance.
Absent track miles, there's not much upside to a GT3, from a technical and performance standpoint.
Now, sure, from a heritage and aspirational standpoint the GT3 RS is leagues beyond a "regular" 911. If you're willing to endure the compromised comfort and utility solely for the sake of aesthetics then that's your call. I just don't think it really translates to an actual difference in driving pleasure/fun/excitement. Really. I honestly think that.
You can't hoon around a street corner any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S. You can't pass someone on the highway any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S (not measurably, at least). On the street you won't be stopping any quicker, turning any sharper, or blowing any more doors off at traffic lights in either car.
Here's the bottom line (and this will probably get a bit scrolly):
When you're buying cars that cost upwards of $100K, there stops being a "good, better, best." Porsche make 30 different flavors of 911. You simply cannot put them in a line from worst to best. The buying philosophy that works for more pedestrian cars just doesn't work once you cross a certain price point.
If you're buying a BMW 3 Series it's simple. You make the line of cars from worst to best, decide what you want to spend, pick that spot on the line and Bob's your uncle -- you've got your car.
With a 911, what? Which is better? A Turbo S or a GT3 RS? The answer is elusive -- they're two different cars built for very different things. Which is better, a Turbo S or a GTS? Again -- that's a tough call. Turbo S is dramatically faster, but also less fun in the twisties and less "pure." I'd never council an S2K guy to buy a Turbo -- you almost certainly want to stick to the RWD flavors of the 911.
With the GT3 and GT3 RS you've really got a very focused set of options and features. These are cars that are built for the track. That doesn't mean they're "better" than the more street-oriented Porsches, it just means they're a more specialized tool. Just like the Turbo is aimed an entirely different set of capabilities.
I'm the world's worst offender for always wanting to buy "the best" of whatever I'm buying. When selecting products I always start at the top of any model range and work my way down if budget or circumstances demand. I get it, I really do. It's easy to see those historic "RS" letters and assume the same approach with the GT3 RS. Isn't Porsche saying it's "the best" 911? But it isn't, really. It's a 911 for track junkies, which isn't the same thing at all.
This reality is evidenced by the startling number of GT3s you can find on the secondary market, owned for a year and sold or traded with just a few thousand miles or less. Guys get the GT3 then wonder what they were thinking because on the street it's just not any faster or more fun than their old C2S. Sometime around the third replacement chin spoiler they realize that they're not really getting much satisfaction from knowing that the brakes have extra cooling ducts or that the engine is "super durable" or that they could, in a fit of lunacy, dial in 2.5 degrees of negative camber up front without needing to buy aftermarket suspension hardware. So they trade in on a GTS or a Turbo and really get "the best" 911.
And I know that through this whole thread it probably sounds like I'm trying to deter you from buying a GT3, but really that's not where I'm coming from. I grew up with posters of the '73 RS on my bedroom wall, lusted after the RS America, and made squeals of joy like an adolescent schoolgirl when the 996 GT3 hit the US market. As much as I love these rear-engined quirks of racing, I'm a sucker for the Porsche marque and pomp.
Orange wheels and that "RS" script on the side of the car give me a thrill -- and if you're in that boat then you should just suck it up and buy the "RS" because otherwise you'll forever be wondering. Maybe yours will end up for resale 12 months later like many do, but at least then you'll know it wasn't for you. If that's where your head is then there's only one actual solution. Sometimes it's impossible to escape the siren song of marketing and heritage.
But you did say you wanted a candid response, so I'm being honest. These cars aren't that awesome on the street. A GTS will be 99.9995% as thrilling on the street, without a lot of the nuisance. If I didn't track my car I'd ditch and and get a GTS in a heartbeat. Same street experience, really, without the additional hassle and expense. For a street-only buyer, ignoring the emotional component of the purchase, I think a GT3 is a poor choice.
But if you buy the GT3 I'll be the first to wave and gawk and smile at you. Just be ready for me to never stop shutting up about getting you out to the track to really see what it can do.
That's the honest truth. My street-driving experience didn't really change at all when I sold my C2S and bought the GT3 RS. The C2S wasn't any less fun to toss around, it wasn't any less fun to run on the streets and highways, it wasn't any less great at street driving. For reals. It was quite a bit less of a hassle on the street, but that better livability didn't come at the expense of street performance.
Absent track miles, there's not much upside to a GT3, from a technical and performance standpoint.
Now, sure, from a heritage and aspirational standpoint the GT3 RS is leagues beyond a "regular" 911. If you're willing to endure the compromised comfort and utility solely for the sake of aesthetics then that's your call. I just don't think it really translates to an actual difference in driving pleasure/fun/excitement. Really. I honestly think that.
You can't hoon around a street corner any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S. You can't pass someone on the highway any faster in a GT3 than you can in a C2S (not measurably, at least). On the street you won't be stopping any quicker, turning any sharper, or blowing any more doors off at traffic lights in either car.
Here's the bottom line (and this will probably get a bit scrolly):
When you're buying cars that cost upwards of $100K, there stops being a "good, better, best." Porsche make 30 different flavors of 911. You simply cannot put them in a line from worst to best. The buying philosophy that works for more pedestrian cars just doesn't work once you cross a certain price point.
If you're buying a BMW 3 Series it's simple. You make the line of cars from worst to best, decide what you want to spend, pick that spot on the line and Bob's your uncle -- you've got your car.
With a 911, what? Which is better? A Turbo S or a GT3 RS? The answer is elusive -- they're two different cars built for very different things. Which is better, a Turbo S or a GTS? Again -- that's a tough call. Turbo S is dramatically faster, but also less fun in the twisties and less "pure." I'd never council an S2K guy to buy a Turbo -- you almost certainly want to stick to the RWD flavors of the 911.
With the GT3 and GT3 RS you've really got a very focused set of options and features. These are cars that are built for the track. That doesn't mean they're "better" than the more street-oriented Porsches, it just means they're a more specialized tool. Just like the Turbo is aimed an entirely different set of capabilities.
I'm the world's worst offender for always wanting to buy "the best" of whatever I'm buying. When selecting products I always start at the top of any model range and work my way down if budget or circumstances demand. I get it, I really do. It's easy to see those historic "RS" letters and assume the same approach with the GT3 RS. Isn't Porsche saying it's "the best" 911? But it isn't, really. It's a 911 for track junkies, which isn't the same thing at all.
This reality is evidenced by the startling number of GT3s you can find on the secondary market, owned for a year and sold or traded with just a few thousand miles or less. Guys get the GT3 then wonder what they were thinking because on the street it's just not any faster or more fun than their old C2S. Sometime around the third replacement chin spoiler they realize that they're not really getting much satisfaction from knowing that the brakes have extra cooling ducts or that the engine is "super durable" or that they could, in a fit of lunacy, dial in 2.5 degrees of negative camber up front without needing to buy aftermarket suspension hardware. So they trade in on a GTS or a Turbo and really get "the best" 911.
And I know that through this whole thread it probably sounds like I'm trying to deter you from buying a GT3, but really that's not where I'm coming from. I grew up with posters of the '73 RS on my bedroom wall, lusted after the RS America, and made squeals of joy like an adolescent schoolgirl when the 996 GT3 hit the US market. As much as I love these rear-engined quirks of racing, I'm a sucker for the Porsche marque and pomp.
Orange wheels and that "RS" script on the side of the car give me a thrill -- and if you're in that boat then you should just suck it up and buy the "RS" because otherwise you'll forever be wondering. Maybe yours will end up for resale 12 months later like many do, but at least then you'll know it wasn't for you. If that's where your head is then there's only one actual solution. Sometimes it's impossible to escape the siren song of marketing and heritage.
But you did say you wanted a candid response, so I'm being honest. These cars aren't that awesome on the street. A GTS will be 99.9995% as thrilling on the street, without a lot of the nuisance. If I didn't track my car I'd ditch and and get a GTS in a heartbeat. Same street experience, really, without the additional hassle and expense. For a street-only buyer, ignoring the emotional component of the purchase, I think a GT3 is a poor choice.
But if you buy the GT3 I'll be the first to wave and gawk and smile at you. Just be ready for me to never stop shutting up about getting you out to the track to really see what it can do.
-- at first glance i have to rid myself of the emotion of having an rs in my garage ........i'll try..........
07-18-2011, 05:45 PM
#88
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
you mean you like this one...
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera-gts/
-- from a strictly practical (if this is a practical purchase at all) point of view, maybe it makes sense......emotionally it doesn't move me like the RS does......thats fairly obvious.......i just need to belly up and answer the question myself now........and your input/view is spot on perfect.......
http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/911/911-carrera-gts/
-- from a strictly practical (if this is a practical purchase at all) point of view, maybe it makes sense......emotionally it doesn't move me like the RS does......thats fairly obvious.......i just need to belly up and answer the question myself now........and your input/view is spot on perfect.......
07-18-2011, 06:00 PM
#89
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Mar 2006
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It's hard for a track rat to advise someone who doesn't want to go to the track about car choices.
I don't really enjoy the RS on the street. It's ok and actually more comfortable than the 996 GT3 but it gets annoying fast. I have no time to use it for pleasure driving on the street and using it for regular driving even occasionally is not that much fun.
But this is because I do get to use it on the track and get my pleasure that way. If I didn't do that I may also lust after an uncomfortable relatively uncompromising car. But I don't need it. I have my M3 and it lets me cause enough mayhem to be entertaining without getting bothersome otherwise. Using the car on the track regularly skews one's perspective in a very big way. If you don't check yourself you may end up sounding like a total bore to other people.
If you really want a more hardcore car you can't go wrong with the GT3RS. Get it, drive it for a few years. If you decide to go to the track you got the car if not you can keep it or sell it to someone who will go to the track.
It's not a very cheap car to own. The tires will get used up relatively fast. But it is reliable, warranty support is good. The dealer will be very surprised to do any warranty work on your RS and discover it never went to the track.
I don't really enjoy the RS on the street. It's ok and actually more comfortable than the 996 GT3 but it gets annoying fast. I have no time to use it for pleasure driving on the street and using it for regular driving even occasionally is not that much fun.
But this is because I do get to use it on the track and get my pleasure that way. If I didn't do that I may also lust after an uncomfortable relatively uncompromising car. But I don't need it. I have my M3 and it lets me cause enough mayhem to be entertaining without getting bothersome otherwise. Using the car on the track regularly skews one's perspective in a very big way. If you don't check yourself you may end up sounding like a total bore to other people.
If you really want a more hardcore car you can't go wrong with the GT3RS. Get it, drive it for a few years. If you decide to go to the track you got the car if not you can keep it or sell it to someone who will go to the track.
It's not a very cheap car to own. The tires will get used up relatively fast. But it is reliable, warranty support is good. The dealer will be very surprised to do any warranty work on your RS and discover it never went to the track.
07-18-2011, 06:35 PM
#90
Three Wheelin'
I've been driving my 08 RS as a daily-driver for the last 7 months (waiting for my Cayman R to arrive).
+1 to everything everyone else has said...
If you dream of the time where you could have that 'race car for the street' - like sports cars of the 50s and 60s, you will be very happy with a GT3 (RS or otherwise). If you grew up on today's cars - comfortable, quiet, soft, auto-everything, you will likely find yourself one of those people that does not keep the car. A short, quick drive will seal the deal one way or the other.
I believe that the GTS is the car most people 'want' (without knowing it) when they think of a 911.
That said, don't ignore the Boxster Spyder. It is a car that many in this forum have great respect for. For the street, it is at least as fast as the GT3, it looks great, is rare/special and its limits are very approachable.
As for Ferrari... if you want a Ferrari (and everyone should own one at least once), buy a vintage car - the depreciation is over, the cars look and sound better, maintenance costs no more and you will not be seem as a 'flavor of the month' kind of person - 10 years from now, your vintage Ferrari will be worth more and still draw attention.
+1 to everything everyone else has said...
If you dream of the time where you could have that 'race car for the street' - like sports cars of the 50s and 60s, you will be very happy with a GT3 (RS or otherwise). If you grew up on today's cars - comfortable, quiet, soft, auto-everything, you will likely find yourself one of those people that does not keep the car. A short, quick drive will seal the deal one way or the other.
I believe that the GTS is the car most people 'want' (without knowing it) when they think of a 911.
That said, don't ignore the Boxster Spyder. It is a car that many in this forum have great respect for. For the street, it is at least as fast as the GT3, it looks great, is rare/special and its limits are very approachable.
As for Ferrari... if you want a Ferrari (and everyone should own one at least once), buy a vintage car - the depreciation is over, the cars look and sound better, maintenance costs no more and you will not be seem as a 'flavor of the month' kind of person - 10 years from now, your vintage Ferrari will be worth more and still draw attention.
Last edited by stevecolletti; 07-19-2011 at 08:02 PM.