Nordschleife

skilful drivers change gear (yes - double declutch whilst braking) without having to think about it. The only way to achieve that level of learned familiarity is by double-declutching and 'heel-and-toe' (for want of a better word) ALL THE TIME - shopping, commuting, trailering, tractoring, at the track, wherever you go. so that you 'Joest Do It'.

'Heel-and-toe' is a disservice, in most vehicles, its 'toe-and-another-part-of the foot-but-never-the-heel'.

With modern brake systems, the need to go down through the gears one by one is no longer paramount, engine braking is dwarfed by the hugely greater effect of the brakes themselves. It may depend on what else you are doing. in many cars ESP/TC is less intrusive in a higher gear. Very often when driving round the outside you are slightly overgeared in the first part of the corner (and remember even at the F1 level, you can almost always drive round the outside) so that you are perfectly placed to get out of the corner better than the other guy.

It is very noticeable that the faster cars at endurance events change gear less often than the slower cars. One of the reasons for double declutching is to be less harsh on the car, so that it lasts.

Just double declutch everywhere you go - you know you are getting there when you no longer need to use the clutch (save this for the old pickup until you have the technique down pat) - its not a track-tool, its a driving tool.

R+C

BBMGT3

Thanks Nordschleife

What is your definition of "double de-clutching"?

I do try to heal-and-toe (which is actually more like ball of foot with side of foot) whenever I can. Carrying a higher gear through a corner also encourages you to carry more speed (so that you are more in the power band). I try to do that as much as possible.

Downshifting through 2 gears (4-3-2) correctly is something I am OK at. Downshifting through 3 gears (5-4-3-2) I just can't manage; I am not quick enough through the gears and the car scrubs off so much speed so quickly that I wind up turning in already and either in neutral or in the middle of a gear change. So I "cheat" by going 5-3-2. The gearbox also seems to "accept" a 5-3 change much more than a 4-2 change. Maybe its my imagination, or that my forward gear movement is more precise that my rearward (moving lever up vs. down).

I do eventually want to get into a race car, but I've told myself not to waste my money until I can drive my road car to a very high level of skill. Then again, I suspect downshifting a sequential box is easier than an H-box.

TRAKCAR

To me it is: Clutch in, neutral, clutch out throttle keep revs up near revs of next gear, clutch in next gear revs matched. up or down the same way.
If you do it right and have a feel for car/track transmission you no longer need the clutch.

Used to be able to double clutch (Had to in old truck) and tried it for a few laps while on track, but it just seems to cost some time and I am a super slow shifter on track as it is.

But Nordschleife is right, practice rev matching everywhere. On cold trans the upshift the lever moves into gear so slow I match revs as the revs drop off to idle. Even puttering around Florida I do it without thinking.
Hard to get enough speed and to actually match revs as i can barely reach the pedal with cold tires and you sound like a moron, but then again driving around in a car with numbers on, you look like one anyway :-)

Nordschleife

as trakcar says

to make it more straight forward, don't think of changing gear from 3 to 2, for example, but from 3 to N and then N to 2 (where N is Neutral), whether you are going up or down the box, you should move the gear lever along the natural planes of the gear shift gate, so going from 2 to 3 is 'up in a slightly offset direction, relax the wrist to let the lever springing align it with the 3-4 axis, then up from the 'middle', 'sprung' or 'natural' neutral position, in a less offset direction to the third gear position.

ramming the gear in a diagonal direction from 2 to 3 is not a great idea.

Strangely, the better you change gear, the less need there is to do so in a wink of a gnat's ****.

R+C

TRAKCAR

Well put!

I am amazed at how fast I see cars shifting on the flatout video's compared to my slow motion action on my flatout video's (Click on my signature to see how slow I do everything lol).
I feel like I'm hurting the car with the riffle action shifts I see done often. Maybe in racing you will win time, but for DE, not worth it IMHO.

Even more so because I think the shifter, cables, clutch, pressure plate are the weak links in RS. I know some of it has been updated on 4.0, that should tell us that the 3.8 is on the limit when track used (abused).

BBMGT3

Well, I just installed a sport clutch, flywheel and pulley on my gt3, and "rifle shot" is exactly how the box feels now. Plus I am forced to shift much faster to keep up with the flywheel. Downshifting is more intuitive now, because smaller blips yield bigger revs. I also cleaned up a misfire that was affecting my throttle response.

Still don't understand the need to double clutch. Definitely understand the 2-N-3 philosphy, I do that already I think. But the marginal benefit of double clutching will cost me 1) loads of time 2) open me up to a host of driving errors (like mistiming a shift movement while the clutch is out

GTgears

My only addition to this conversation would be to say that if you are going to skip gears, please don't skip 3rd and drop it into 2nd. 2nd is the money gear. What I mean is that if you screw up the shift it's going to cost you a lot of money, and it's got more delicate dog teeth on it, so it's easier to screw up if you haven't properly double clutched and rev-matched as you enter the gear.
Pictures for reference.
3rd gear:

2nd gear:

In addition to the smaller teeth, 2nd is a 3 ring sychro assembly. If you replace those parts with Cup Car synchros it's more than $2000. And if you damage the teeth on the gear itself, you need a new mainshaft because both 1st and 2nd are integral to the mainshaft. Basically, if you screw up 2nd gear, you've got a $6000-7000 Oops on your hand. Not as expensive as an over-revved engine, but not cheap either.

So, if you are going to skip gears, stick to 6-4 or 5-3, but do NOT ever go 5-2 or 4-2. Put it in 3rd before you move over to 2.

TRAKCAR

Stickier tires and forget all about 2nd might be a solution

Terry L

This is my fault for saying something imprecisely. When I say relax in neutral, I mean for maybe .5 seconds while downshifting. I didn't mean to suggest that you should roll into the corner in neutral, only that there is no need to rush the 5-3 shift while you are under full brake at or near the end of the brake zone.

rlips

I'm confused here. On my .2 (non RS), I get an indicated 147 or so at red line in fourth gear. Are you hitting speeds above that on the front straight at the Glen? If so, my hats off to you! I get to about 130+, 4 is fine with a shift to 3 for T1

Cheers,

R

Terry L

I'm shifting to 5th before I'm bouncing off the rev limiter but I'm pretty close to red line so whatever that is... No way I'm looking at the speedo! You have to be pretty brave in T11 and if I'm not, I can't get to 5th by T1.

BBMGT3

Thanks Matt, those are some nice photos. Had no idea 2nd was that important. Looks fragile too.

rlips

Haha, I agree about not looking at the speedo...that makes sense, I am not very brave in T11 and am only tracking out at about 95 mph.....I just can't seem to get over the wall looming up....

amaist

The .2 RS has a shorter final drive ratio. 5th gear comes up on most tracks where a non RS from 996 GT3 and up have pretty tall gears thus very rarely requiring 5th gear. At least with most drivers like us. I know guys getting into 5th with tall gears in places I can only dream of. Most of them are paid real money to drive cars fast.

DogInBlack

I double clutch on downshifts, and I also like going down to each gear for timing. Skipping just feels strange to me. Let me share something I teach my students learning heel toe and proper downshifting called the rule of halves. I'll suggest Road Atlanta 10a for example. If you begin your braking at 200' in 5th gear, set up your 4th gear downshift at 100' marker (halfway), then time your 3rd gear downshift at 50' (halfway from your last downshift to turn in), and again 2nd at 25'. Since your rate of speed is decreasing, you have adequate time to make these shifts at the proper revs without a risk of over rev letting the clutch out with each shift. This works consistently in threshold braking situations with multiple downshifts.