Ultimate VTG engines
12-11-2011, 03:51 PM
#136
you surely mean the ford ? 
not only good customer - but good advertizement as well
It's the other way around - the programming specifies the boost for the given VE/air mass (to simplify). And the values are already there - but it seems that parametrization is incomplete or incorrect and allows ECU to deviate. In practice all they might have to do is to lower treshholds and/or modify few specific engine load points.
You asked me why we considered VTG's for the race car - I told you straight it's the controllability of the turbos - there is nothing on the market in terms of boost control (as in actuator controlled vanes) that has more faster/dynamic response or could be more tied in with DME. But they require the tuner to do programming differently......
not only good customer - but good advertizement as well
You asked me why we considered VTG's for the race car - I told you straight it's the controllability of the turbos - there is nothing on the market in terms of boost control (as in actuator controlled vanes) that has more faster/dynamic response or could be more tied in with DME. But they require the tuner to do programming differently......
12-15-2011, 06:22 AM
#137
Could this be a problem in below DIN conditions aka sub 20 degrees ambient ?
Regarding avader on the overboost code that the ecu went out of range to compensate for the exhaust ,, i have been running catless for 30k Kms now which probably the ECU could compensate for the extra .2 or 3 psi and didnt experiance any problems like i have now on peak torque...
When i installed the GT2 RS coolers which are even more restrictive than the 997.1 which requires the turbos to boost .2 psi more it probably was too much for the ecu to compensate along with the catless exhaust extra .3 psi of boost and went out of range throwing overboost codes when i try to bring the torque in 5th gear 2xxxx rpm..
Now evreything seems clear to me... i just cant wait to throw these .2 coolers out and install a proper IC system
Last edited by TTurbine; 12-15-2011 at 02:07 PM.
12-21-2011, 08:41 PM
#138
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Wow..
Have not logged on in a while and just spent like an hour reading this tread. Well if i can chip in on the "boost limiter" issue you guys have analysed to death, I actually had exactly what you guys described for a period of 2 years with my tuner trying to correct it with different tunes etc etc (and $$$ mounting). It would come when i would take the car from switzerland (800-1000 mtrs altitude) and everything was fine until I reached the coast at sea level.. It would also happen when temperatures where going down and at max torque the car was hitting some kind of limiter and would hold back torque or boost, like a hesitation when boost would build up when going WOT from 2k rpm or so. I can't describe how many times I complained and complained and paid for new dyno tuning sessions etc. Whenever conditions were getting substantially better than dyno (air density, fuel and mainly ambient) I would get this problem. But never upon picking up the car from the tuner in the conditions it was tuned..
So if you guys can associate with what I am describing above then the solution was found in my car after 2 years of searching. So (absent of faulty spark plugs, or blocked fuel filter, or any other fuel/ignition problem) the issue is just a formulaic limiter in the ECU that -as I was told- has torque/rpm as 2 of the variables - there are others- that once you breach because of better conditions it basically limits torque.
It is nothing more sophisticated than that I am afraid. We increased this a couple of times and i have not had this since. I am running large VTG rebuilt engine with 740hp/ 950NM torque with GT2 intake (yes IT IS possible to get more than 680hp with expansion intake but with completely different tuning strategy).
As for hissing sounds etc, I found that in high boost VTG setups the stock BRVs tend to start leaking very often and need replacing. There is a limit (around 1.5 bar in my experience) beyond which those elastic BRVs start developing issues and their seats and leak under WOT. They are very sensitive and as an example I used to have to change these every 2 months always wondering why etc. When i accidentally discovered an air leak in the system that caused the VTGs to over boost to compensate (leaking exhaust flap valve) the problem stopped miraculously. Have not have to change them in over a year..
Toby I did not know about the intake issue, tough luck on that one but i guess it s ok that nothing else broke because of that.
Finally regarding the .2 coolers my experience has been quite good so far. I logged about 20 degrees better in identical back to back runs vs some AM ICs (there is thread on that on 6bling with video, Vbox etc) and i rarely go above 50 degrees really in runs to 300kms. I think that using the expansion intake makes a big difference there and what you lose in boost you make up in ignition timing (I run around 25-26 at high rpm) to make the power in high rpm.
Have not logged on in a while and just spent like an hour reading this tread. Well if i can chip in on the "boost limiter" issue you guys have analysed to death, I actually had exactly what you guys described for a period of 2 years with my tuner trying to correct it with different tunes etc etc (and $$$ mounting). It would come when i would take the car from switzerland (800-1000 mtrs altitude) and everything was fine until I reached the coast at sea level.. It would also happen when temperatures where going down and at max torque the car was hitting some kind of limiter and would hold back torque or boost, like a hesitation when boost would build up when going WOT from 2k rpm or so. I can't describe how many times I complained and complained and paid for new dyno tuning sessions etc. Whenever conditions were getting substantially better than dyno (air density, fuel and mainly ambient) I would get this problem. But never upon picking up the car from the tuner in the conditions it was tuned..
So if you guys can associate with what I am describing above then the solution was found in my car after 2 years of searching. So (absent of faulty spark plugs, or blocked fuel filter, or any other fuel/ignition problem) the issue is just a formulaic limiter in the ECU that -as I was told- has torque/rpm as 2 of the variables - there are others- that once you breach because of better conditions it basically limits torque.
It is nothing more sophisticated than that I am afraid. We increased this a couple of times and i have not had this since. I am running large VTG rebuilt engine with 740hp/ 950NM torque with GT2 intake (yes IT IS possible to get more than 680hp with expansion intake but with completely different tuning strategy).
As for hissing sounds etc, I found that in high boost VTG setups the stock BRVs tend to start leaking very often and need replacing. There is a limit (around 1.5 bar in my experience) beyond which those elastic BRVs start developing issues and their seats and leak under WOT. They are very sensitive and as an example I used to have to change these every 2 months always wondering why etc. When i accidentally discovered an air leak in the system that caused the VTGs to over boost to compensate (leaking exhaust flap valve) the problem stopped miraculously. Have not have to change them in over a year..
Toby I did not know about the intake issue, tough luck on that one but i guess it s ok that nothing else broke because of that.
Finally regarding the .2 coolers my experience has been quite good so far. I logged about 20 degrees better in identical back to back runs vs some AM ICs (there is thread on that on 6bling with video, Vbox etc) and i rarely go above 50 degrees really in runs to 300kms. I think that using the expansion intake makes a big difference there and what you lose in boost you make up in ignition timing (I run around 25-26 at high rpm) to make the power in high rpm.
12-22-2011, 12:37 PM
#139
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Hey Yiorgos, thanks for the input...
The thing that makes me unsure about this being a simple torque limiter issue with a simple fix being an increase in said limit is this....
We both have the same clutches on our cars right ? well mine slips big time when the temp drops below 15C so my engine dyno 920NM DIN at 20C (at which point the clutch can hold no probs) is becoming a lot more, probably 1000+NM.
You have you "torque limiter" sorted now so why isn't your clutch slipping (forget your Sportec BoschFLA torque, this is calculated not actual directly measured ?
I don't think it is soley the torque limiter, as said before I reckon the VTG mechanism is not being able (because the hot side vane mechansim is designed to cope with a much smaller 600hp max compressor wheel) to cope with the volume of air which the big compressor violently shoves into the engine when it boosts up at ~2600rpm, the vane mechanism simply can't control the flow (remember there is no other way to dump the boost) and so too much air gets in and various limiters (including maybe the torque limiter) come into play and cut the spark and fuelling.....
I know that if the full torque was allowed the clutch would be totally fried since it will slip immediately with the torque available at say 4000rpm.... it is the management of the build up of the boost which is the problem.... I think ?
The thing that makes me unsure about this being a simple torque limiter issue with a simple fix being an increase in said limit is this....
We both have the same clutches on our cars right ? well mine slips big time when the temp drops below 15C so my engine dyno 920NM DIN at 20C (at which point the clutch can hold no probs) is becoming a lot more, probably 1000+NM.
You have you "torque limiter" sorted now so why isn't your clutch slipping (forget your Sportec BoschFLA torque, this is calculated not actual directly measured ?
I don't think it is soley the torque limiter, as said before I reckon the VTG mechanism is not being able (because the hot side vane mechansim is designed to cope with a much smaller 600hp max compressor wheel) to cope with the volume of air which the big compressor violently shoves into the engine when it boosts up at ~2600rpm, the vane mechanism simply can't control the flow (remember there is no other way to dump the boost) and so too much air gets in and various limiters (including maybe the torque limiter) come into play and cut the spark and fuelling.....
I know that if the full torque was allowed the clutch would be totally fried since it will slip immediately with the torque available at say 4000rpm.... it is the management of the build up of the boost which is the problem.... I think
?
12-22-2011, 08:54 PM
#140
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I think my car works differently as i seem to have torque buildup a few 000s rpm higher than yours Tobby, also i have different (longer) final gear and as of last month a new clutch!. The torque buildup is indeed very important here and I am sure that beyond the electronic limiter there should be at some point a mechanical limit on those VTGs vanes. Before checking for the more complicated potential solutions I think it makes sense -because of my very frustrating and extremely long experience on this problem- to first start from this simple fix.
Also i am not sure about your VTGs but my GT2 modded ones have a 49.8mm compressor wheel which I think its the biggest they could fit in there. Theoretically I could have the same issue running those turbos now. Of course you have a 3.9 vs my 3.6 and turbo intake vs my more restrictive expansion. Too many variables to consider here but I think its worth telling RS about this (I assume they already know but you know those germans...) and also worth checking those VTG BRVs. If those are shot then the VTGs work overtime to compensate. Cant tell you how many issues I had led back back to simple things like those BRVs
Also i am not sure about your VTGs but my GT2 modded ones have a 49.8mm compressor wheel which I think its the biggest they could fit in there. Theoretically I could have the same issue running those turbos now. Of course you have a 3.9 vs my 3.6 and turbo intake vs my more restrictive expansion. Too many variables to consider here but I think its worth telling RS about this (I assume they already know but you know those germans...) and also worth checking those VTG BRVs. If those are shot then the VTGs work overtime to compensate. Cant tell you how many issues I had led back back to simple things like those BRVs
12-23-2011, 04:55 AM
#141
Former Vendor
EvoMS is selling upgraded -they seem like having aluminium body- BRVs. I havent yet seen any user reviews about them.
Yiorgos, who tuned your car? Would it be too much asked to get a Durametric log of your 0-300 kmh pull? I'm mostly interested in seeing ignition advance numbers.
If you want to share, you can mail it to pete95zhn at hotmail dot com
BRGDS,
Yiorgos, who tuned your car? Would it be too much asked to get a Durametric log of your 0-300 kmh pull? I'm mostly interested in seeing ignition advance numbers.
If you want to share, you can mail it to pete95zhn at hotmail dot com
BRGDS,
12-23-2011, 07:29 PM
#142
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they are here; 80-300 back to back 2 different ICs
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ml#post3156601
post 224
video here:
passenger combined weight on this run 210kgs!! gulp
Re aftermarket BRVs, I personally stayed away from them. I tried 3 types and reverted to stock. The metal ones are too harsh and they keep boost in the system on lift off. Somehow the stock rubber ones have a nicer operation (if not broken that is). Now that i sorted out all other leaks I had they seem to hold on to my 1.55bar without issues.
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...ml#post3156601
post 224
video here:
passenger combined weight on this run 210kgs!! gulp
Re aftermarket BRVs, I personally stayed away from them. I tried 3 types and reverted to stock. The metal ones are too harsh and they keep boost in the system on lift off. Somehow the stock rubber ones have a nicer operation (if not broken that is). Now that i sorted out all other leaks I had they seem to hold on to my 1.55bar without issues.
Last edited by GT; 12-25-2011 at 08:20 AM.
01-04-2012, 09:13 AM
#144
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Hey Nick
Good to hear from you, I have noticed your exploits on bling site and am very excited for you, you will be having a lot of fun but be ready for some bumps on your journey - keep us informed on here of your progress and we can meet up for some airfield action when you are ready
I noticed some 6bling guys getting all macho about my thread talking about data logging - can you let them know that I am NOT advertising using RS Tuning in fact I advise people to stay away from them, they are pretty un user friendly to deal with.
Ask the Greek poster with the 1000hp standard VTG engine to share some of his logs rather than critising what I do, I would love to see what is happening in his engine in a 200-300 run....
An update for this thread I have been trying to run some numbers with the colder weather we are having but am having problems getting traction in 4th gear.
Below is a 100-200kph run in 4th gear I attempted but you can see the TC cutting the fuel and timing at the beginning as the wheels spun so it wasn't optimum, cold weather helps the IATs but brings its own problems in the traction department it still managed it in 4.7s.....
Edit: BTW if anyone can enlighten on what the "engine load" column means, it is a parameter in Durametric which says something like "engine load to SEA 1972" looking at the data below when it hits the 99.6 level the timing increases substantially and smooths out so I am wondering if the program is limiting the engine load (due to traction issues) all the way up to 164kph ?
Good to hear from you, I have noticed your exploits on bling site and am very excited for you, you will be having a lot of fun but be ready for some bumps on your journey - keep us informed on here of your progress and we can meet up for some airfield action when you are ready
I noticed some 6bling guys getting all macho about my thread talking about data logging - can you let them know that I am NOT advertising using RS Tuning in fact I advise people to stay away from them, they are pretty un user friendly to deal with.
Ask the Greek poster with the 1000hp standard VTG engine to share some of his logs rather than critising what I do, I would love to see what is happening in his engine in a 200-300 run....
An update for this thread I have been trying to run some numbers with the colder weather we are having but am having problems getting traction in 4th gear.
Below is a 100-200kph run in 4th gear I attempted but you can see the TC cutting the fuel and timing at the beginning as the wheels spun so it wasn't optimum, cold weather helps the IATs but brings its own problems in the traction department it still managed it in 4.7s.....
Edit: BTW if anyone can enlighten on what the "engine load" column means, it is a parameter in Durametric which says something like "engine load to SEA 1972" looking at the data below when it hits the 99.6 level the timing increases substantially and smooths out so I am wondering if the program is limiting the engine load (due to traction issues) all the way up to 164kph ?
01-04-2012, 10:20 AM
#145
Engine load is basically the volume of air the fills the combustion chamber.. there are a few values in the durametric i beleive the value you choose is a calculation as a precentage.. the 99.6 value means that 99.6% of your combustion chamber is filled with air.. the maf is also reading 19xxx when it hits 99% hence producing more power..
01-04-2012, 03:18 PM
#146
note how this run differs from the one you showed in your blow-up thread - how less advanced timing / how less lean you running. As for TC (and less so ABS) they need to be re-programmed or turned off - have they switched you to bosch motorsport ecu unit yet (if not you wont be able to get them TC optimized for the new setup)?
01-04-2012, 08:18 PM
#147
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No they haven't the Bosch MS ecu does not work with VTG control and regardless the standard ECU is more elaborate on many levels and is a far better match to a road driven car. I understand the the Bosch ECU is a lot simpler to program and many other tuners will use it as a cop out.
well I'm driving it and it is a superb thing, allows wheelspin and a little slippage but really saves your bacon when you try to deploy a lot of torque and hit bad road cambers and/or slippy conditions.
01-05-2012, 02:58 PM
#148
[QUOTE=TB993tt;9153928]Hey Nick
Good to hear from you, I have noticed your exploits on bling site and am very excited for you, you will be having a lot of fun but be ready for some bumps on your journey - keep us informed on here of your progress and we can meet up for some airfield action when you are ready
QUOTE]
I cant wait to get it finished and I have already had a few bumps along the way lol will keep you posted and look forward to some testing with you at Brunters
Good to hear from you, I have noticed your exploits on bling site and am very excited for you, you will be having a lot of fun but be ready for some bumps on your journey - keep us informed on here of your progress and we can meet up for some airfield action when you are ready
QUOTE]
I cant wait to get it finished and I have already had a few bumps along the way lol will keep you posted and look forward to some testing with you at Brunters
01-06-2012, 06:29 AM
#150