Gavin's thoughts on Bishops Bend
03-02-2012, 01:18 PM
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Gavin's thoughts on Bishops Bend
Hahaha!
Well, if you say so. But to me it's more about having a more stable planted car that isn't at the rev limiter (and thus requiring you to feather the throttle like you are doing there because the back end is so twitchy) than is it about total MPH. Why? Because a more stable, planted car in Bishops means a more stable, planted car on the brakes for 15, which means longer throttle zone, with softer & less braking needed, which means more speed thru 15 into 16.
The Cups may only be doing mid 120's in the video, but they slow less for 15 & carry alot more speed all thru the entire segment. Lots of reasons for that obviously, but one is needing to slow less and carry more entry speed into 15 with the car totally squatted.
But what do I know?
Well, if you say so. But to me it's more about having a more stable planted car that isn't at the rev limiter (and thus requiring you to feather the throttle like you are doing there because the back end is so twitchy) than is it about total MPH. Why? Because a more stable, planted car in Bishops means a more stable, planted car on the brakes for 15, which means longer throttle zone, with softer & less braking needed, which means more speed thru 15 into 16.
The Cups may only be doing mid 120's in the video, but they slow less for 15 & carry alot more speed all thru the entire segment. Lots of reasons for that obviously, but one is needing to slow less and carry more entry speed into 15 with the car totally squatted.
But what do I know?
Yeah see I would never take 15 or 16 in 4th.
Anyway, do what you think is best. I believe (with data) if you're real fast on the double downshift, getting to 5th is overall better in Bishops...but that is the beauty of this sport, there are usually quite a few effective ways to take each corner.
And yes, Clarke is absolutely correct. I drove a client's car at Winterfest thru Bishops that way, he almost soiled himself in the right seat, and then went AHA! in the brake zone!
Anyway, do what you think is best. I believe (with data) if you're real fast on the double downshift, getting to 5th is overall better in Bishops...but that is the beauty of this sport, there are usually quite a few effective ways to take each corner.
And yes, Clarke is absolutely correct.
I drove a client's car at Winterfest thru Bishops that way, he almost soiled himself in the right seat, and then went AHA! in the brake zone!You have sticky tires, it helps a lot at exit.....put some sport cups or R888 and try that
Gavin has extec......that makes him more super human than he is
Follow gavin is a on non extec car and he doesnt jump the gator. He has watched my video.....and Chris Hall has. My line is spot on theirs
You can cut the gator, but it unsettles the car and you could spin
Bishops is DANGEROUS, once the car goes bye bye its hard to get it back
Be careful what you post here on RL.....115 thru Bishops is fast if your line / car control / tires are not correct
I saw a 997.2 GT3 RS hit the wall so hard on exit it cracked the engine case
Gavin has extec......that makes him more super human than he is
Follow gavin is a on non extec car and he doesnt jump the gator. He has watched my video.....and Chris Hall has. My line is spot on theirs
You can cut the gator, but it unsettles the car and you could spin
Bishops is DANGEROUS, once the car goes bye bye its hard to get it back
Be careful what you post here on RL.....115 thru Bishops is fast if your line / car control / tires are not correct
I saw a 997.2 GT3 RS hit the wall so hard on exit it cracked the engine case
There is mucho peligro EVERYWHERE at Sebring. That is a given. This is a dangerous sport, and moreso in uncaged cars.
I don't advocate folks do stupid crap that puts them and others in danger, because I don't want to be in their right seat when they do. However, sometimes our comfort zones are just that. It is very easy to repeatedly reconfirm our comfort zones. Sometimes wacky thinking can yield wildly productive results, such as what Gavin and I apparently do (sometimes) in Bishops.
I don't advocate folks do stupid crap that puts them and others in danger, because I don't want to be in their right seat when they do. However, sometimes our comfort zones are just that. It is very easy to repeatedly reconfirm our comfort zones. Sometimes wacky thinking can yield wildly productive results, such as what Gavin and I apparently do (sometimes) in Bishops.
Somehow I can only do that in the dark; Weird. Maybe not seeing and only feeling the car being plated makes it work I dunno.
I looked at Chris Hall Data and Randy data through Bishop's and T15 a and b and it seems hat Randy has got it nailed without beating my time. Yet. I think my car had better time when I did my hero lap.
He's an engineer and actually listens and believes in coaches AND can do what they tell him. I believe and listen, just cant override old habits and precieved limits ;-)
Guess I need more coaching then he does, he's coming for me...
I looked at Chris Hall Data and Randy data through Bishop's and T15 a and b and it seems hat Randy has got it nailed without beating my time. Yet. I think my car had better time when I did my hero lap.
He's an engineer and actually listens and believes in coaches AND can do what they tell him. I believe and listen, just cant override old habits and precieved limits ;-)
Guess I need more coaching then he does, he's coming for me...
I am not too good at hero (qualifying) laps
But good at repeating the same thing, taking it slightly faster each time,inch by inch
Yes, I listen to coaches word for word....and for some reason I don't annoy Gavin with my constant questions. I believe Gavin knows Sebring as good as anyone.
You deal with a rotating beetle better than me, so I'm slow to speed. A sideways car is a slow car.....but looks cool on RL
My biggest advantage was Chris hall teaching me how to compare velocity /time graphs to segment data. Sometimes the corner u feel fastest is ur slowest and vise versa
Without proper data analysis it's driving in dark
After every session I download and compare
Lol....and I am coming for u, need to humble the rennlist superstar
But good at repeating the same thing, taking it slightly faster each time,inch by inch
Yes, I listen to coaches word for word....and for some reason I don't annoy Gavin with my constant questions. I believe Gavin knows Sebring as good as anyone.
You deal with a rotating beetle better than me, so I'm slow to speed. A sideways car is a slow car.....but looks cool on RL
My biggest advantage was Chris hall teaching me how to compare velocity /time graphs to segment data. Sometimes the corner u feel fastest is ur slowest and vise versa
Without proper data analysis it's driving in dark
After every session I download and compare
Lol....and I am coming for u, need to humble the rennlist superstar
Don't get me wrong: I am just playing devil's advocate here, but based on experience. However, I have had a gander at a bit of the data here, and the one lap (not Randy's fastest, but only slower by 0.2 seconds) where he does the least throttle bobbling in Bishops also happens to be where he (a) has his highest top speed, by a fair margin, in Bishops in that entire session, and (b) had his highest minimum speed after braking for 15 (meaning the highest entry speed for 15).
These are not coincidences. This one lap was a marked improvement in that area (slower in others, hence a 0.2 second slower overall lap time).
My point still stands: a more stable platform there means more speed attained & less braking needed for 15. One way to get a more stable platform in Bishops, in a 997.2 RS, is to short shift to 5th gear at the first gators on the right side after exiting 13, providing you are fast fast fast on your double downshifts in 15....
These are not coincidences. This one lap was a marked improvement in that area (slower in others, hence a 0.2 second slower overall lap time).
My point still stands: a more stable platform there means more speed attained & less braking needed for 15. One way to get a more stable platform in Bishops, in a 997.2 RS, is to short shift to 5th gear at the first gators on the right side after exiting 13, providing you are fast fast fast on your double downshifts in 15....
Hi Guys,
I am gonna pass the keyboard to Gavin on this one….
After reading the many posts (some of which are quoted above) about Bishops on the 48 hours thread, I thought I would make some comments. Firstly let me state this is THE MOST DANGEROUS corner at Sebring and if you get it wrong the consequences can be severe. We all want to go faster, but this is one of those cases where the half a second you may gain from being brave is not worth it, especially as most of the DE Cup Cars do not have full roll cages. I have hit a wall at 120mph in a street car with no cage and let me assure you it is something you DON'T want to experience.
I agree with Randy that the optimum speed through this corner is in the low 120's on data, high 120's on the speedo. If you choose to push above that number you need to have a plan of what to do if the car starts to get loose mid corner. I have experienced this on 3 or 4 different occasions and if you don't react quickly you will be going sideways and heading towards some obstacle that you do not want to hit.
It may be faster on data to come through in 4th, however if you are running out of RPM this becomes a problem. I fully agree with Veloce Raptor that a stable car that's not on the rev limiter is the correct way to drive through Bishops. Although I generally drive through Bishops in most cars flat I always prefer them to still be accelerating as you come through the second apex. This not only makes the car more stable, but makes it much easier to control if you have to do a mid corner correction. As Randy stated, one of our friends destroyed his new GT3 RS last year going through Bishops. Fortunately he was not hurt, and I am writing this to hopefully prevent someone else from crashing or worse, bring injured.
The mistake that most people make is when the car starts to give up grip coming through the second apex they continue to steer the car back towards the left side of the track to set up for the brake zone. DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE!! Open your hands, stay on the gas, and drive the car down the right side of the track, yes you have to give up 15 but that is a small price to pay for saving your ***! Ease out of the gas once the car starts to correct itself, don't lift suddenly. Remember most of you are driving 911's and once the rear end starts giving up grip and inertia sets in ; especially at the speeds you are going through Bishops you must react quickly with steering input not throttle lift off. Remember when cars do spin they generally, because of inertia, travel in the direction that the front of the car is pointed in when the spin starts to occur. Therefore you have a far less chance of hitting something if you have the car pointed as much toward 15 as possible when the spin occurs. In this case early steering input will always be your friend.
Yes Clarke is correct; I do drive over the curb at the second apex. My suspension certainly helps in allowing me to do this. I also use this line when I am driving other GT3's. I AM NOT RECOMMENDING IT. It works but it requires you to be very precise with your steering inputs and your line. If you stay on the curbing for too long you WILL SPIN and probably CRASH. Although I am not recommending it as there is a lot more risk involved, if you choose to try it as Clarke did you must commit once you have turned in early as you need the car accelerating and you need all he down force you can get. I have attached a video clip of me going through Bishops using this line during the 48 hours. I am following a 996 Cup Car. My typical data speeds are low 130's and speedo is generally high 130's. The benefit of this line is you are not fighting the car as much to get it back over to set up for 15. That being said, I normally don't get all the way back to the left side of the track as speed won't allow it. I also prefer in most cars to only downshift to 4th coming into 15 to prevent too much busyness in the car and do the downshift to 3rd when I brake for 16. This is a personal preference, gear ratios and data need to be the ultimate determining factor.
I can not emphasize enough that this corner is dangerous, most of you don't have full roll cages, please use your common sense unless you're absolutely confident in your car and your own abilities, don't try and be a hero. The half a second you gained isn't worth the risk. If you do decide to try and carry more speed through Bishops, take small incremental steps, the difference between having grip and not having grip can be as little as a couple miles per hour.
Please be safe, this is about having fun and crashing is not fun.
Gavin
03-02-2012, 01:25 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
Agree 100% with 100% of what you said. 
You and I take that 2nd apex curb the exact same way (in most cars).
Would love to meet & compare notes sometime...
You and I take that 2nd apex curb the exact same way (in most cars).
Would love to meet & compare notes sometime...
03-02-2012, 03:40 PM
#4
Race Director
Hi Gavin from your track walks to detailed posts like this I thank you for your time and input. Personally for me and my Carrera GTS on MPSC tires I just breath off to almost 1/2 throttle and acellerate through Bishops. I come out of Bishops at around 115mph and that is good enough for me. Chris Hall was around same speed in my car at this point of Sebring.
I'm actually more scared of track out T17 since I spun there at full throttle and could never figure out why.
I'm actually more scared of track out T17 since I spun there at full throttle and could never figure out why.
03-02-2012, 04:35 PM
#6
Drifting
Thank you Gavin for all your time helping us out. I enjoyed following you at the 48. Of course this is where I saw you do that special line and after seeing you do it again on the next lap (and getting further away from me) I knew I had to do it too. I really, really, really like that line way over the curb in part b - why? because of the straight-line-stable-braking right after it. Feels much more in control than trying to brake while still turning left.
Yes, I am on Hoosiers. I have no idea how it feels on a different tire as that was my first time at Sebring and Hoosiers R6 is all I ran on. But man did that feel good to brake in a straight line.
Yes, I am on Hoosiers. I have no idea how it feels on a different tire as that was my first time at Sebring and Hoosiers R6 is all I ran on. But man did that feel good to brake in a straight line.
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03-02-2012, 05:49 PM
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Perfect timing on this I was just have a conversation with a GT3 DE Cup BACKMARKER on this very section of track. I did assure him that I would keep is ID confidential, but hey what fun is that.....Some call him captain spin, while others use him as a rolling pick.....all I know he is on his way to crawfish country in a yellow car.
03-02-2012, 06:35 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Perfect timing on this I was just have a conversation with a GT3 DE Cup BACKMARKER on this very section of track. I did assure him that I would keep is ID confidential, but hey what fun is that.....Some call him captain spin, while others use him as a rolling pick.....all I know he is on his way to crawfish country in a yellow car.
