Pirelli Trofeo wear after 4 track days w/ pics
05-08-2012, 09:31 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Pirelli Trofeo wear after 4 track days w/ pics
For all you track rats!
A lot of people have been wondering how the Pirelli Trofeo DOT rubber does with grip and wear.
Grip: Better then cups and R888s, hands down. These are almost like Hoosiers with grooves.
Wear: Less then both so far. I think I can get 2 more days out of them at the most. It is the outside wear that is what cuts the tire life short. The pics below will show you.
Alignment specs. - 2.6 front camber with 0 toe / -2.0 rear camber with .10 toe-in each side. Castor is factory set. I ran the tire pressures as per Pirelli at hot 30F and 32R.
To me, it seems like the sidewall is not as stiff as Pirelli says and it could have used a little more air to stiffen them up a bit.
With the same specs on my 911S the Toyo R888s actually had more wear on the middle to insides over the outside edges on the fronts.
I can tell you this, if the new Trofeo Rs wear is significantly better as Pirelli says it will be, this will be a killer DE tire.
Photos
Fronts:
Rears:
For a reference, here is what the rears looked like brand new:
A lot of people have been wondering how the Pirelli Trofeo DOT rubber does with grip and wear.
Grip: Better then cups and R888s, hands down. These are almost like Hoosiers with grooves.
Wear: Less then both so far. I think I can get 2 more days out of them at the most. It is the outside wear that is what cuts the tire life short. The pics below will show you.
Alignment specs. - 2.6 front camber with 0 toe / -2.0 rear camber with .10 toe-in each side. Castor is factory set. I ran the tire pressures as per Pirelli at hot 30F and 32R.
To me, it seems like the sidewall is not as stiff as Pirelli says and it could have used a little more air to stiffen them up a bit.
With the same specs on my 911S the Toyo R888s actually had more wear on the middle to insides over the outside edges on the fronts.
I can tell you this, if the new Trofeo Rs wear is significantly better as Pirelli says it will be, this will be a killer DE tire.
Photos
Fronts:
Rears:
For a reference, here is what the rears looked like brand new:
05-08-2012, 10:24 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
16 HC. I'm already running -2.6F and -2.0 rear. I didn't get this kind of outside wear on the cups or Toyos on my 911S so I'm thinking it may be the reason Pirelli changed the compound or the extra weight of the turbo, but, I added sway bars and end links on the turbo compared to my S.
I'm going to throw them on my OZ wheels which have a slightly better offset (and lighter) then the stockers so maybe that will help a bit.
I can always add a bit more neg camber. Maybe go -2.8F and -2.2R but I will have to get adj toe links in the rear to do that.
Last edited by Doc GTO; 05-08-2012 at 11:51 PM.
05-08-2012, 10:32 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
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AWD is killing those shoulders. With as much camber as you have, I think a change in driving technique would be more effective for your car. Try being more aggressive on when you apply throttle out of a corner- like, a LOT earlier, which means getting the turning done earlier too.
05-08-2012, 10:50 PM
#6
For all you track rats!
A lot of people have been wondering how the Pirelli Trofeo DOT rubber does with grip and wear.
Grip: Better then cups and R888s, hands down. These are almost like Hoosiers with grooves.
Wear: Less then both so far. I think I can get 2 more days out of them at the most. It is the outside wear that is what cuts the tire life short. The pics below will show you.
Alignment specs. - 2.6 front camber with 0 toe / -2.0 rear camber with .10 toe-in each side. Castor is factory set. I ran the tire pressures as per Pirelli at hot 30F and 32R.
To me, it seems like the sidewall is not as stiff as Pirelli says and it could have used a little more air to stiffen them up a bit.
With the same specs on my 911S the Toyo R888s actually had more wear on the middle to insides over the outside edges on the fronts.
I can tell you this, if the new Trofeo Rs wear is significantly better as Pirelli says it will be, this will be a killer DE tire.
A lot of people have been wondering how the Pirelli Trofeo DOT rubber does with grip and wear.
Grip: Better then cups and R888s, hands down. These are almost like Hoosiers with grooves.
Wear: Less then both so far. I think I can get 2 more days out of them at the most. It is the outside wear that is what cuts the tire life short. The pics below will show you.
Alignment specs. - 2.6 front camber with 0 toe / -2.0 rear camber with .10 toe-in each side. Castor is factory set. I ran the tire pressures as per Pirelli at hot 30F and 32R.
To me, it seems like the sidewall is not as stiff as Pirelli says and it could have used a little more air to stiffen them up a bit.
With the same specs on my 911S the Toyo R888s actually had more wear on the middle to insides over the outside edges on the fronts.
I can tell you this, if the new Trofeo Rs wear is significantly better as Pirelli says it will be, this will be a killer DE tire.
1. There isn't much left for tires on either end. There is no tread left on the outside of the fronts. Outside on the rears have a little more, but I would not be surprised if you corded them in one more day at the track.
2. There is a lot of feathering like they were overheated or not heat cycled properly. How are you bringing them up to temp when starting a session?
3. Quite a bit of edge rolling on the tires and less wear in the center indicate you are running too little pressure or the width of the tires are not matched well with the width of the wheels. I wonder if they are like R888s where you really have to stretch them on the wheels to get optimal grip? What size tires are you running? You appear to be using stock wheels, so I assume your wheel sizes are 19x8.5/19x11. On my Carrera, I wore out the outer edges on my first set of R888s quickly running 255/35 and 315/30 tires on 18x9/18x11 wheels. Switching the next set to 235/40 and 295/30 drastically improved turn-in, grip and they wore completely even across the tires. The narrow sizes were over 2 seconds faster per lap. This was with similar alignment specs to what you are using.
4. With just 4 track days, this is significantly more wear than I have typically seen with MPSCs, Corsas or R888s. I get at least 8 track days and 5000 miles on the street out of a set of any of these other tires. With Corsas, I've gotten as much as 12 track days and 6000 miles out of a set. I am not surprised, all the people I have seen run them get at least 1/3 less tire life than Corsas or MPSCs. From what I've heard, the Trefeo Rs will have similar wear to a Corsa with more dry grip.
Last edited by 10 GT3; 05-09-2012 at 09:05 PM.
05-08-2012, 11:05 PM
#7
Rennlist Member
I don't know Peter. The outside shoulder tread blocks are much wider then the inside so I don't know if they can be flipped like a Toyo.
28-32 HC. I'm already running -2.6F and -2.0 rear. I didn't get this kind of outside wear on the cups or Toyos on my 911S so I'm thinking it may be the reason Pirelli changed the compound or the extra weight of the turbo, but, I added sway bars and end links on the turbo compared to my S.
I'm going to throw them on my OZ wheels which have a slightly better offset (and lighter) then the stockers so maybe that will help a bit.
I can always add a bit more neg camber. Maybe go -2.8F and -2.2R but I will have to get adj toe links in the rear to do that.
28-32 HC. I'm already running -2.6F and -2.0 rear. I didn't get this kind of outside wear on the cups or Toyos on my 911S so I'm thinking it may be the reason Pirelli changed the compound or the extra weight of the turbo, but, I added sway bars and end links on the turbo compared to my S.
I'm going to throw them on my OZ wheels which have a slightly better offset (and lighter) then the stockers so maybe that will help a bit.
I can always add a bit more neg camber. Maybe go -2.8F and -2.2R but I will have to get adj toe links in the rear to do that.
As for outside wear, it is not really extra wear on the outside. Look at the last picture in your post, and you will see that a new tire has much shallower outside grooves compared to the inside. As the tire wears, the outside grooves will disappear before the inside grooves. You are running enough camber.
How much does your car weigh without you and fuel?
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05-08-2012, 11:11 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
AWD is killing those shoulders. With as much camber as you have, I think a change in driving technique would be more effective for your car. Try being more aggressive on when you apply throttle out of a corner- like, a LOT earlier, which means getting the turning done earlier too.
Some observations:
1. There isn't much left for tires on either end. There is no tread left on the outside of the fronts. Outside on the rears have a little more, but I would not be surprised if you corded them in one more day at the track.
2. There is a lot of feathering like they were overheated or not heat cycled properly. How are you bringing them up to temp when starting a session?
3. Quite a bit of edge rolling on the tires and less wear in the center indicate you are running too little pressure or the width of the tires are not matched well with the width of the wheels. I wonder if they are like R888s where you really have to stretch them on the wheels to get optimal grip? What size tires are you running? You appear to be using stock wheels, so I assume your wheel sizes are 19x8.5/19x11. On my Carrera, I wore out the outer edges on my first set of R888s quickly running 255/35 and 315/30 tires on 18x9/18x11 wheels. Switching the next set to 235/40 and 295/30 drastically improved turn-in, grip and they worse completely even across the tires. The narrow sizes were over 2 seconds faster per lap. This was with similar alignment specs to what you are using.
4. With just 4 track days, this is significantly more wear than I have typically seen with MPSCs, Corsas or R888s. I get at least 8 track days and 5000 miles on the street out of a set of any of these other tires. With Corsas, I've gotten as much as 12 track days and 6000 miles out of a set. I am not surprised, all the people I have seen run them get at least 1/3 less tire life than Corsas or MPSCs. From what I've heard, the Trefeo Rs will have similar wear to a Corsa with more dry grip.
1. There isn't much left for tires on either end. There is no tread left on the outside of the fronts. Outside on the rears have a little more, but I would not be surprised if you corded them in one more day at the track.
2. There is a lot of feathering like they were overheated or not heat cycled properly. How are you bringing them up to temp when starting a session?
3. Quite a bit of edge rolling on the tires and less wear in the center indicate you are running too little pressure or the width of the tires are not matched well with the width of the wheels. I wonder if they are like R888s where you really have to stretch them on the wheels to get optimal grip? What size tires are you running? You appear to be using stock wheels, so I assume your wheel sizes are 19x8.5/19x11. On my Carrera, I wore out the outer edges on my first set of R888s quickly running 255/35 and 315/30 tires on 18x9/18x11 wheels. Switching the next set to 235/40 and 295/30 drastically improved turn-in, grip and they worse completely even across the tires. The narrow sizes were over 2 seconds faster per lap. This was with similar alignment specs to what you are using.
4. With just 4 track days, this is significantly more wear than I have typically seen with MPSCs, Corsas or R888s. I get at least 8 track days and 5000 miles on the street out of a set of any of these other tires. With Corsas, I've gotten as much as 12 track days and 6000 miles out of a set. I am not surprised, all the people I have seen run them get at least 1/3 less tire life than Corsas or MPSCs. From what I've heard, the Trefeo Rs will have similar wear to a Corsa with more dry grip.
2. I usually do 2-3 easy laps to bring them up to temps then turn up the wick. It was very hot in Sav this past weekend and the tires did start to get a little greasy mid afternoon.
3. Stock turbo sizes.
4. Without a doubt, I get more life from cups and R888s which are the best for wear int he past.
I will be going to an OZ Ultraleggera in 19X8.5 and 19 X11 but with better offsets then stockers and 12 lbs overall lighter a set.
My gut feeling was that they needed more air pressure to stiffen up things but the Pirelli site said 30F and 32R hot pressures. I think that I could have gone 34F and 36R hot for the turbo.
05-08-2012, 11:17 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
You should not flip them given the significant difference in the tread blocks (inside vs. outside).
As for outside wear, it is not really extra wear on the outside. Look at the last picture in your post, and you will see that a new tire has much shallower outside grooves compared to the inside. As the tire wears, the outside grooves will disappear before the inside grooves. You are running enough camber.
How much does your car weigh without you and fuel?
As for outside wear, it is not really extra wear on the outside. Look at the last picture in your post, and you will see that a new tire has much shallower outside grooves compared to the inside. As the tire wears, the outside grooves will disappear before the inside grooves. You are running enough camber.
How much does your car weigh without you and fuel?
60
05-08-2012, 11:23 PM
#11
I believe Doc GTO said in an earlier thread that both he and his wife drive the car and that's why he accumulated 28 to 32 heat cycles in 4 DE days. Am I correct?
Regardless, given Hoosiers reportedly give 16 to 20 heat cycles, 28 to 32 heat cycles with more life left seems to be reasonable for the Trofeos when you take into account their grip versus the Hoosiers. No?
Regardless, given Hoosiers reportedly give 16 to 20 heat cycles, 28 to 32 heat cycles with more life left seems to be reasonable for the Trofeos when you take into account their grip versus the Hoosiers. No?
05-08-2012, 11:51 PM
#12
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I believe Doc GTO said in an earlier thread that both he and his wife drive the car and that's why he accumulated 28 to 32 heat cycles in 4 DE days. Am I correct?
Regardless, given Hoosiers reportedly give 16 to 20 heat cycles, 28 to 32 heat cycles with more life left seems to be reasonable for the Trofeos when you take into account their grip versus the Hoosiers. No?
Regardless, given Hoosiers reportedly give 16 to 20 heat cycles, 28 to 32 heat cycles with more life left seems to be reasonable for the Trofeos when you take into account their grip versus the Hoosiers. No?
These tires have 16 HC on them. They still have life in them but the very outer edge of the fronts are what looks to be the early out on these tires. I think more air pressure or a bit more neg camber.
I will go back and correct my math.
Sorry guys.
05-09-2012, 12:04 AM
#13
Race Director
Thanks for the follow up on the Troefeo's Doc! I's love to try these too but wonder if and when the R version of the Trofeo's will be here?
As far as MPSC N Spec 19" stock sizes vs Toyo R888 19" stock sizes the R888.for me it seems the R888 have a bit more grip and might last 1-2 days longer too...plus the R888 are around $800 less than MPSC.
As far as MPSC N Spec 19" stock sizes vs Toyo R888 19" stock sizes the R888.for me it seems the R888 have a bit more grip and might last 1-2 days longer too...plus the R888 are around $800 less than MPSC.
05-09-2012, 12:16 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Where do you buy these?
Same price as MPSC's?
Same price as MPSC's?
05-09-2012, 12:17 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the follow up on the Troefeo's Doc! I's love to try these too but wonder if and when the R version of the Trofeo's will be here?
As far as MPSC N Spec 19" stock sizes vs Toyo R888 19" stock sizes the R888.for me it seems the R888 have a bit more grip and might last 1-2 days longer too...plus the R888 are around $800 less than MPSC.
As far as MPSC N Spec 19" stock sizes vs Toyo R888 19" stock sizes the R888.for me it seems the R888 have a bit more grip and might last 1-2 days longer too...plus the R888 are around $800 less than MPSC.