View Poll Results: How to you set your TC / PSM when lapping?
I always keep it ON
41
34.45%
I usually keep it ON
14
11.76%
I always keep it OFF
29
24.37%
Depends on track / conditions
25
21.01%
N/A - my car doesn't have TC or PSM
10
8.40%
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll
Poll: Who here tracks their car w/ traction control + PSM turned on?
09-18-2013, 05:25 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
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09-18-2013, 05:42 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
This topic ain't a pissing contest, and I'm appalled at your instructor for chastising the use of SC/TC. Disengage the systems only when you feel you can focus, want that extra element of slip angle, and can bear risk that entails.
It also depends on your tire choice. For me, high grip + high slip angle tires like the R6 or full slicks don't sit well with either system on--at least not when optimal laptimes is the objective. Lower grades of rubber (street, esp.) seem to work okay with TC on.
I surmise that the factory TC is calibrated to work with something like the OEM MPSCs. Hence it'll exceed the envelope of lesser street tires and allow that slip angle. And it's not just the slip angle itself, but the RATE at which you build up that slip angle. Do it gradually and you'll be surprised that you can get into a steady drift with opposite lock.
It also depends on your tire choice. For me, high grip + high slip angle tires like the R6 or full slicks don't sit well with either system on--at least not when optimal laptimes is the objective. Lower grades of rubber (street, esp.) seem to work okay with TC on.
I surmise that the factory TC is calibrated to work with something like the OEM MPSCs. Hence it'll exceed the envelope of lesser street tires and allow that slip angle. And it's not just the slip angle itself, but the RATE at which you build up that slip angle. Do it gradually and you'll be surprised that you can get into a steady drift with opposite lock.
09-18-2013, 09:54 PM
#34
I personally advocate the complete opposite.
In the wet, I have adopted the mindset of drift every corner on every lap.
Speeds are so much slower and thus safer.
If there was ever a time to work on car control it is when it is raining so hard you can't see.
Give it a try - you will never, ever go back.
Going out with R6s in this environment is even better - the car can be sideways at 10mph - if you go off track at that speed you don't go more than 10 feet.
In the wet, I have adopted the mindset of drift every corner on every lap.
Speeds are so much slower and thus safer.
If there was ever a time to work on car control it is when it is raining so hard you can't see.
Give it a try - you will never, ever go back.
Going out with R6s in this environment is even better - the car can be sideways at 10mph - if you go off track at that speed you don't go more than 10 feet.
09-19-2013, 02:57 AM
#36
Rennlist Member
SC always off for me, SC kicks in rear brakes through tight turns too often, particularly those where the tire slip is high. Also noticed it intervening on moments where the car is light at a crest, like the top of Valkyrie hill at ORP or turn 3 at the ridge and can feel unsettling and to me sometimes it's idea of "stability" is wrong. When it tries to jerk the car in the wrong way at 100+ it's wrong in my book. My TC is very useful since the cutoff is quick and like a racing TC- this is with the EVOMSit tune. I leave that on since it doesn't hinder forward progress when it kicks in.
09-19-2013, 03:11 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
When you say, 'SC' I think you mean PSM. AFAIK, PSM and TC are either both ON or both OFF for our cars. I have the EVOMSit tune as well but am unaware of any changes it makes to TC or PSM.
I get what you're saying about top of 3 @ the ridge. Same deal when system is ON. Although, I'm pretty sure that's TC kicking in and not PSM (SC). PSM only kicks in when things get really out of shape -- at least I think. Happy to say I don't have much experience w/ PSM kicking in.
It would be nice if we could disable TC and keep PSM. I can only assume the Porsche engineers had a very good reason for coupling them.
I get what you're saying about top of 3 @ the ridge. Same deal when system is ON. Although, I'm pretty sure that's TC kicking in and not PSM (SC). PSM only kicks in when things get really out of shape -- at least I think. Happy to say I don't have much experience w/ PSM kicking in.
It would be nice if we could disable TC and keep PSM. I can only assume the Porsche engineers had a very good reason for coupling them.
09-19-2013, 07:37 AM
#38
For the slower viewers can someone tell me what the car techincally does with both buttons on and then just one on? I drive the car hard on R6's and with a fresh of stickers both buttons on the light never comes on.
09-19-2013, 09:17 AM
#39
Drifting
- the sound when I am tucked up under Red Bear's rear bumper in a turn. So loud I can hear it over my stereo playing AC/DC Thunderstruck. Its kinda like an audio version of a brake light. Very helpful since I am so close I cannot see his taillights when that computer crap is applying the brakes on his car and lets me know to lift so I don't slam into him.
09-19-2013, 11:15 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
When you say, 'SC' I think you mean PSM. AFAIK, PSM and TC are either both ON or both OFF for our cars. I have the EVOMSit tune as well but am unaware of any changes it makes to TC or PSM.
I get what you're saying about top of 3 @ the ridge. Same deal when system is ON. Although, I'm pretty sure that's TC kicking in and not PSM (SC). PSM only kicks in when things get really out of shape -- at least I think. Happy to say I don't have much experience w/ PSM kicking in.
It would be nice if we could disable TC and keep PSM. I can only assume the Porsche engineers had a very good reason for coupling them.
I get what you're saying about top of 3 @ the ridge. Same deal when system is ON. Although, I'm pretty sure that's TC kicking in and not PSM (SC). PSM only kicks in when things get really out of shape -- at least I think. Happy to say I don't have much experience w/ PSM kicking in.
It would be nice if we could disable TC and keep PSM. I can only assume the Porsche engineers had a very good reason for coupling them.
As far as the EVOMSit TC- it is definitely different from the stock firmware. Stock it would bog and you had no power for few seconds halting forward progress. With the tune it's sort of like hitting the rev limiter, you have slightly reduced power- it's like an ignition cut off- brapppppppppp sound through the exhaust- but since forward progress continues, it's actually a nice feature for balancing traction.
09-19-2013, 05:21 PM
#41
09-19-2013, 06:15 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
I don't have my GT3 yet so not sure how it is calibrated relative to my current 997.1 C2S but on that car I leave TC and PSM on at the track. I find that it only very rarely interferes (as in, maybe once a day) as long as I am smooth and drive correctly - it has pretty high thresholds for slip angle and I have plenty of rear grip for the power I have coming out of corners (maybe that will change with GT3). I have driven with it off and to be honest, I drive the same way.
I also would never berate a student for having it on. I don't care if you turn it off but that's your call, I don't need to liability and guilt of having a student go off after I pressure them into turning it off. Since I instruct with other clubs I do get to see some cars with really aggressive traction/stability control that really does hold you back. BMW drivers always turn it off and I agree with them.
I also would never berate a student for having it on. I don't care if you turn it off but that's your call, I don't need to liability and guilt of having a student go off after I pressure them into turning it off. Since I instruct with other clubs I do get to see some cars with really aggressive traction/stability control that really does hold you back. BMW drivers always turn it off and I agree with them.
09-19-2013, 06:36 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
I drove a couple of track days last week, including a PCA event for the first time in over a decade. I needed to get checked out for Group A and the instructor busted my ***** about running with traction control / PSM turned on -- nannies, babysitters, diapers as some folks like to call it. Whatever.
Here's the deal. I've spent my fair share of time driving / racing cars w/o traction control, yaw control, or ABS. I have nothing to prove. But to appease the instructor, I turned it off for the day just to prove a point. I alternated some sessions ON / OFF and my lap times were only slightly better with it turned OFF. Admittedly, driving the car was more fun but -- for me -- it feels irresponsible and unnecessary for lapping my $$$ daily at a DE event.
The TC / PSM on the Porsche is really quite good IMO. If you're driving well, it doesn't intervene. It's common to fully drift the car around a turn w/o not so much as a peep from the system. There are times when TC will kick in when hard on power out of a turn. I wish we could turn off just the TC and keep the PSM (yaw control) because I really don't care about a little bit of wheel spin out of a tight turn -- fun actually -- and it slows me down when TC kicks in to intervene in such scenarios. PSM is a different story. If that’s kicking in, time to call it a day. (I’ve had it kick in exactly once in over a year -- and it was a legit mistake.)
In my view, there’s nothing wrong about driving w/ TC / PSM turned on as long as you’re not relying on it. Again, if PSM kicks in you messed up really bad and probably time to call it quits or at least take a break. If TC is kicking in, it’s probably a sign you can be a smoother w/ inputs -- kinda like having a coach sitting in the passenger seat. Since TC defuels / applies brakes, my fastest lap times are my cleanest w/ no TC intervention. Some folks have suggested that TC makes you faster which is simply not the case -- explain to me how defueling / adding bake makes you faster.
I'll even go so far to say that driving with TC / PSM turned on can make you a better / faster driver in a scenario where driver is not approaching limits out fear of loosing car. Hooray. Driving w/o TC / PSM but what are you really learning? How to drive a line? If having it ON gives you that safety net to push your boundaries, then I'll argue you should turn it on. You're better off driving near the limit w/ it ON than comfortably below the limit out of fear of crashing your car or worse. IMO, if you're not pushing your limits, don't waste your time & money going to the track.
All that said, I drove w/ TC / PSM turned off the following day at another event for a couple of reasons. Why? As mentioned, the car is more fun to drive. Is that enough reason to keep me driving with it off? We’ll see. Probably will depend on track & conditions. Pacific Raceways + Rain. Yes. Damn right I'll have it turned ON.
Poll. When lapping, do you drive with TC + PSM turned ON, OFF, or Both? Be honest. I’ve seen people claim they have it off but it’s pretty obvious when TC / PSM or similar intervenes on a car viewed from behind.
Here's the deal. I've spent my fair share of time driving / racing cars w/o traction control, yaw control, or ABS. I have nothing to prove. But to appease the instructor, I turned it off for the day just to prove a point. I alternated some sessions ON / OFF and my lap times were only slightly better with it turned OFF. Admittedly, driving the car was more fun but -- for me -- it feels irresponsible and unnecessary for lapping my $$$ daily at a DE event.
The TC / PSM on the Porsche is really quite good IMO. If you're driving well, it doesn't intervene. It's common to fully drift the car around a turn w/o not so much as a peep from the system. There are times when TC will kick in when hard on power out of a turn. I wish we could turn off just the TC and keep the PSM (yaw control) because I really don't care about a little bit of wheel spin out of a tight turn -- fun actually -- and it slows me down when TC kicks in to intervene in such scenarios. PSM is a different story. If that’s kicking in, time to call it a day. (I’ve had it kick in exactly once in over a year -- and it was a legit mistake.)
In my view, there’s nothing wrong about driving w/ TC / PSM turned on as long as you’re not relying on it. Again, if PSM kicks in you messed up really bad and probably time to call it quits or at least take a break. If TC is kicking in, it’s probably a sign you can be a smoother w/ inputs -- kinda like having a coach sitting in the passenger seat. Since TC defuels / applies brakes, my fastest lap times are my cleanest w/ no TC intervention. Some folks have suggested that TC makes you faster which is simply not the case -- explain to me how defueling / adding bake makes you faster.
I'll even go so far to say that driving with TC / PSM turned on can make you a better / faster driver in a scenario where driver is not approaching limits out fear of loosing car. Hooray. Driving w/o TC / PSM but what are you really learning? How to drive a line? If having it ON gives you that safety net to push your boundaries, then I'll argue you should turn it on. You're better off driving near the limit w/ it ON than comfortably below the limit out of fear of crashing your car or worse. IMO, if you're not pushing your limits, don't waste your time & money going to the track.
All that said, I drove w/ TC / PSM turned off the following day at another event for a couple of reasons. Why? As mentioned, the car is more fun to drive. Is that enough reason to keep me driving with it off? We’ll see. Probably will depend on track & conditions. Pacific Raceways + Rain. Yes. Damn right I'll have it turned ON.
Poll. When lapping, do you drive with TC + PSM turned ON, OFF, or Both? Be honest. I’ve seen people claim they have it off but it’s pretty obvious when TC / PSM or similar intervenes on a car viewed from behind.
09-19-2013, 06:53 PM
#44
Drifting
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Then would a good chunk of people agree that the older 996GT3 without all the nannies take more skill and is more rewarding in the end. Especially if that end had the GT1 punched out to 3.9?
