Built 997 Turbo Suspension Upgrades
10-27-2018, 10:43 AM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Built 997 Turbo Suspension Upgrades
I know there's other threads on this but not wanting to get in the way of those. Many of you have followed the build on my car, huge thanks to Sam and his team! Now that I'm starting to track the car, it's time to take this power and put it better to the ground. So it's suspension upgrade time!! My car is a built/forged 997, so plenty of power but needs help with this kind of power in the turns. Right now I'm tracking it 5 to 6 times a year but also drive it a couple times a week, weather permitting. I've worked my way quickly from novice to the advanced run groups and notice myself getting caught pretty fast in the turns by GT3s, RSs, etc. My current suspension is stock but I have Techart lowering springs, new DSC module and adjustable rear toe links already:
This is what Sam and I have worked out what we are going to do. I'm interested in those that have gone this route, please provide your thoughts/feedback.
Planned suspension mods:
KW V3 Coilovers
Billet Drop Links for front and rear
Sway Bar front and rear with bushings
Front monoball camber plates
I'm widening my front track for better stability and turn in like the GT3, this requires the following additional parts:
Front and Rear lower control arm kits
Front Axle Spacers kit
GT3 lower arm conversion kit
Control arm shim kit
Litronic brackets
If you've gone this route, let me know any feedback. My goals are really dual purpose, improve my lap times to be competitive in advanced run groups. I don't need to be the fastest. While at the same time still able to drive it a couple of times to work without feeling like a rock.
This is what Sam and I have worked out what we are going to do. I'm interested in those that have gone this route, please provide your thoughts/feedback.
Planned suspension mods:
KW V3 Coilovers
Billet Drop Links for front and rear
Sway Bar front and rear with bushings
Front monoball camber plates
I'm widening my front track for better stability and turn in like the GT3, this requires the following additional parts:
Front and Rear lower control arm kits
Front Axle Spacers kit
GT3 lower arm conversion kit
Control arm shim kit
Litronic brackets
If you've gone this route, let me know any feedback. My goals are really dual purpose, improve my lap times to be competitive in advanced run groups. I don't need to be the fastest. While at the same time still able to drive it a couple of times to work without feeling like a rock.
10-27-2018, 11:29 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
You're standing on the edge of the same cliff I was earlier this season. Tracking my 997TT regularly, moving up through the run groups quickly, and ready to go ***** deep on track prepping the turbo. Albeit not directly suspension related, in terms of cost you've got a few more things to add to your list: track wheels, track rubber, half cage, seats and harnesses. If you do all that suspension work, you're going to need all these things to properly take advantage of your big power and new found suspension capabilities. Looking at the thick end of $25k+ before your project is complete.
I opted to take that $ and just buy an already built dedicated track car. It's slow as ***** on the straight. But I lap over 5 seconds faster than my 997TT on a 1:32 lap. Most fun I've ever had with pants on.
But back to your question. Your suspension list looks good but I'd challenge you on the KW V3's for a few reasons:
- They are not serious track duty units (spring rates are very soft compared to other more 'track focused' coilovers ie AST, Moton, JRZ, MCS, etc...
- Are you planning to take advantage of 3-ways? Are you going to spend the hours and $$$ tuning rebound, high speed compression and low speed compression? IMO us weekend warriors will never take advantage of 3-ways, and you're better off spending the same $ on better built but less adjustable (1 way or 2 way) JRZ's, AST's or other proper track coilover
- Have you ever taken a ride in a car setup like the list you've put together? You will not achieve a good compromise; it will either be too soft for the track, or great at the track and abysmal on the street. This is the fundamental reason I went the track car route; ruining the ability to enjoy the 997TT on the street
- You're spending big bucks on adjustable components - if you're still going to be using the car on the street, are you actually going to take advantage of the camber settings (-3.0 or more up front) you're able to achieve with this hardware? Even with this hardware, you're going to be stuck at -2.3 to -2.5 if you're doing any amount of street driving - or else be cording the insides of the front tires every couple thousand miles. Most r-compounds and slicks need -3.0 or more for proper performance
The 997TT with your list of components but swapping the KW's for better units, would make an absolute beast at the track! I would love to experience that. But you have to be real with yourself - you will be seriously reducing your enjoyment of driving the car on the street. You know you're going to go to seats and harness bar too (all us track junkies do), so factor those in too.
The 997TT with DSC, a set of damptronic coilovers retaining PASM, rear GT2 sway, front LCA's, rear toe kit and track alignment (plus some properly sticky rubber) would be the ultimate street / track combo. With the power available, this setup would absolutely destroy GT3's and just about anything else at the track when properly driven. And without ruining the street manners of the car.
Edit: One more thing I meant to add - have you ever let a pro drive your car at the track while you ride shotgun? Sitting right seat while a pro manhandles your whip around the track doing things you didn't think were possible gives you new appreciation for the limits of your car's current capabilities - and helps you assess whether your current plateau is hardware related or simply the current limit of your personal skill set / comfort level. With some good coaching, you may be able to start demolishing those GT3's even without going hammy ham on the suspension hardware setup.
I opted to take that $ and just buy an already built dedicated track car. It's slow as ***** on the straight. But I lap over 5 seconds faster than my 997TT on a 1:32 lap. Most fun I've ever had with pants on.
But back to your question. Your suspension list looks good but I'd challenge you on the KW V3's for a few reasons:
- They are not serious track duty units (spring rates are very soft compared to other more 'track focused' coilovers ie AST, Moton, JRZ, MCS, etc...
- Are you planning to take advantage of 3-ways? Are you going to spend the hours and $$$ tuning rebound, high speed compression and low speed compression? IMO us weekend warriors will never take advantage of 3-ways, and you're better off spending the same $ on better built but less adjustable (1 way or 2 way) JRZ's, AST's or other proper track coilover
- Have you ever taken a ride in a car setup like the list you've put together? You will not achieve a good compromise; it will either be too soft for the track, or great at the track and abysmal on the street. This is the fundamental reason I went the track car route; ruining the ability to enjoy the 997TT on the street
- You're spending big bucks on adjustable components - if you're still going to be using the car on the street, are you actually going to take advantage of the camber settings (-3.0 or more up front) you're able to achieve with this hardware? Even with this hardware, you're going to be stuck at -2.3 to -2.5 if you're doing any amount of street driving - or else be cording the insides of the front tires every couple thousand miles. Most r-compounds and slicks need -3.0 or more for proper performance
The 997TT with your list of components but swapping the KW's for better units, would make an absolute beast at the track! I would love to experience that. But you have to be real with yourself - you will be seriously reducing your enjoyment of driving the car on the street. You know you're going to go to seats and harness bar too (all us track junkies do), so factor those in too.
The 997TT with DSC, a set of damptronic coilovers retaining PASM, rear GT2 sway, front LCA's, rear toe kit and track alignment (plus some properly sticky rubber) would be the ultimate street / track combo. With the power available, this setup would absolutely destroy GT3's and just about anything else at the track when properly driven. And without ruining the street manners of the car.
Edit: One more thing I meant to add - have you ever let a pro drive your car at the track while you ride shotgun? Sitting right seat while a pro manhandles your whip around the track doing things you didn't think were possible gives you new appreciation for the limits of your car's current capabilities - and helps you assess whether your current plateau is hardware related or simply the current limit of your personal skill set / comfort level. With some good coaching, you may be able to start demolishing those GT3's even without going hammy ham on the suspension hardware setup.
10-27-2018, 12:18 PM
#4
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by cstyles
You're standing on the edge of the same cliff I was earlier this season. Tracking my 997TT regularly, moving up through the run groups quickly, and ready to go ***** deep on track prepping the turbo. Albeit not directly suspension related, in terms of cost you've got a few more things to add to your list: track wheels, track rubber, half cage, seats and harnesses. If you do all that suspension work, you're going to need all these things to properly take advantage of your big power and new found suspension capabilities. Looking at the thick end of $25k+ before your project is complete.
I opted to take that $ and just buy an already built dedicated track car. It's slow as ***** on the straight. But I lap over 5 seconds faster than my 997TT on a 1:32 lap. Most fun I've ever had with pants on.
But back to your question. Your suspension list looks good but I'd challenge you on the KW V3's for a few reasons:
- They are not serious track duty units (spring rates are very soft compared to other more 'track focused' coilovers ie AST, Moton, JRZ, MCS, etc...
- Are you planning to take advantage of 3-ways? Are you going to spend the hours and $$$ tuning rebound, high speed compression and low speed compression? IMO us weekend warriors will never take advantage of 3-ways, and you're better off spending the same $ on better built but less adjustable (1 way or 2 way) JRZ's, AST's or other proper track coilover
- Have you ever taken a ride in a car setup like the list you've put together? You will not achieve a good compromise; it will either be too soft for the track, or great at the track and abysmal on the street. This is the fundamental reason I went the track car route; ruining the ability to enjoy the 997TT on the street
- You're spending big bucks on adjustable components - if you're still going to be using the car on the street, are you actually going to take advantage of the camber settings (-3.0 or more up front) you're able to achieve with this hardware? Even with this hardware, you're going to be stuck at -2.3 to -2.5 if you're doing any amount of street driving - or else be cording the insides of the front tires every couple thousand miles. Most r-compounds and slicks need -3.0 or more for proper performance
The 997TT with your list of components but swapping the KW's for better units, would make an absolute beast at the track! I would love to experience that. But you have to be real with yourself - you will be seriously reducing your enjoyment of driving the car on the street. You know you're going to go to seats and harness bar too (all us track junkies do), so factor those in too.
The 997TT with DSC, a set of damptronic coilovers retaining PASM, rear GT2 sway, front LCA's, rear toe kit and track alignment (plus some properly sticky rubber) would be the ultimate street / track combo. With the power available, this setup would absolutely destroy GT3's and just about anything else at the track when properly driven. And without ruining the street manners of the car.
Edit: One more thing I meant to add - have you ever let a pro drive your car at the track while you ride shotgun? Sitting right seat while a pro manhandles your whip around the track doing things you didn't think were possible gives you new appreciation for the limits of your car's current capabilities - and helps you assess whether your current plateau is hardware related or simply the current limit of your personal skill set / comfort level. With some good coaching, you may be able to start demolishing those GT3's even without going hammy ham on the suspension hardware setup.
I opted to take that $ and just buy an already built dedicated track car. It's slow as ***** on the straight. But I lap over 5 seconds faster than my 997TT on a 1:32 lap. Most fun I've ever had with pants on.
But back to your question. Your suspension list looks good but I'd challenge you on the KW V3's for a few reasons:
- They are not serious track duty units (spring rates are very soft compared to other more 'track focused' coilovers ie AST, Moton, JRZ, MCS, etc...
- Are you planning to take advantage of 3-ways? Are you going to spend the hours and $$$ tuning rebound, high speed compression and low speed compression? IMO us weekend warriors will never take advantage of 3-ways, and you're better off spending the same $ on better built but less adjustable (1 way or 2 way) JRZ's, AST's or other proper track coilover
- Have you ever taken a ride in a car setup like the list you've put together? You will not achieve a good compromise; it will either be too soft for the track, or great at the track and abysmal on the street. This is the fundamental reason I went the track car route; ruining the ability to enjoy the 997TT on the street
- You're spending big bucks on adjustable components - if you're still going to be using the car on the street, are you actually going to take advantage of the camber settings (-3.0 or more up front) you're able to achieve with this hardware? Even with this hardware, you're going to be stuck at -2.3 to -2.5 if you're doing any amount of street driving - or else be cording the insides of the front tires every couple thousand miles. Most r-compounds and slicks need -3.0 or more for proper performance
The 997TT with your list of components but swapping the KW's for better units, would make an absolute beast at the track! I would love to experience that. But you have to be real with yourself - you will be seriously reducing your enjoyment of driving the car on the street. You know you're going to go to seats and harness bar too (all us track junkies do), so factor those in too.
The 997TT with DSC, a set of damptronic coilovers retaining PASM, rear GT2 sway, front LCA's, rear toe kit and track alignment (plus some properly sticky rubber) would be the ultimate street / track combo. With the power available, this setup would absolutely destroy GT3's and just about anything else at the track when properly driven. And without ruining the street manners of the car.
Edit: One more thing I meant to add - have you ever let a pro drive your car at the track while you ride shotgun? Sitting right seat while a pro manhandles your whip around the track doing things you didn't think were possible gives you new appreciation for the limits of your car's current capabilities - and helps you assess whether your current plateau is hardware related or simply the current limit of your personal skill set / comfort level. With some good coaching, you may be able to start demolishing those GT3's even without going hammy ham on the suspension hardware setup.
I'll acknowledge that there's still plenty of things I can do better with my driving skills but part of that is due my car rolling and bobbing so much through the turns. I'm not being as aggressive as I could given the cars power level but at the same time it gets real unstable very quick, so I back off.
I wish I could go for less expensive track oriented car but I've already got a lot invested in this car, plus no garage room, and probably would not have happy wife/life - if you know what I mean.
I do already have track wheels, tires, pads, rotors, trailer etc. Spent this year accumulating those items. It's funny that you bring up seats, harness and cage. I am looking at those items but want to finish the suspension work first. I don't want to break the bank and still want to keep the car drivable. I'm eyeing the new Recaro Sportster GT seats along with the agency power bolt in cage that still allows you to use the rear seats when needed.
On the coilovers, Sam and I went back and forth on this. I kept reiterating to him that I still want to be able to drive this car on the street, while competitive on the track. I may not probably saying the right terminology on the coilovers but initially he was recommending the Clubsport versions with 3 way adjustable options. Those are very expensive and to your point, I would never use that kind of adjustability. I'm going with the KW but they call them their variant 3 versions with PASM (which is just a module that blocks the PASM from use from what I understand). I believe these are just 2 way adjustable and cost much less. The real expense or half of it is in the widening of the front track. But many feel that while I'm in there doing these components and racing at the track, I'll eventually wish I would have done this.
I know I'll go seats, harness and cage eventually and also eyeing the GT2 wing for better downforce. I've got to be patient on those pieces and get the suspension done first.
10-27-2018, 01:38 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Catorce
Really eager to see what you come up with on this build!
and wet from morning rain. Will probably look to run stickier NT-01 or R888R tires next Year.
10-29-2018, 01:41 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
"Edit: One more thing I meant to add - have you ever let a pro drive your car at the track while you ride shotgun? Sitting right seat while a pro manhandles your whip around the track doing things you didn't think were possible gives you new appreciation for the limits of your car's current capabilities - and helps you assess whether your current plateau is hardware related or simply the current limit of your personal skill set / comfort level. With some good coaching, you may be able to start demolishing those GT3's even without going hammy ham on the suspension hardware setup."...
I love your last edit comment...I am no Pro for sure (I used to be on two wheels, former AMA Expert License holder who raced at Daytona back in the day), but your edit comment made me remember an interview by Kenny Robert's Mechanic Kel Carruthers talking about when Yamaha brought three of the new TZ-750's to America to let their factory riders test them. The short end of the story is the other two guys couldn't even really ride them the frame bent and wobbled so much in the high speed corners...whereas Kenny just rode it as delivered and was running laps 5 seconds faster right out of the box. Put another way, the human factor is almost always the biggest area for improvement at racing speed.
I love your last edit comment...I am no Pro for sure (I used to be on two wheels, former AMA Expert License holder who raced at Daytona back in the day), but your edit comment made me remember an interview by Kenny Robert's Mechanic Kel Carruthers talking about when Yamaha brought three of the new TZ-750's to America to let their factory riders test them. The short end of the story is the other two guys couldn't even really ride them the frame bent and wobbled so much in the high speed corners...whereas Kenny just rode it as delivered and was running laps 5 seconds faster right out of the box. Put another way, the human factor is almost always the biggest area for improvement at racing speed.
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10-29-2018, 02:25 PM
#9
Banned
Dguth
I'm not really seeing an issue with your video. Clearly, the modded power your car has is enough to reel the whole field in, and it seems to be handling great!
I'm not really seeing an issue with your video. Clearly, the modded power your car has is enough to reel the whole field in, and it seems to be handling great!
10-29-2018, 02:41 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Thanks Cat! I guess it's more noticeable to me in the turns. I started to struggle more in the late afternoon runs. Once everyone started clearing out and it was just me and 9 other cars on the track, mostly GT3s, RSs some ZL1s and Z06s. I was having to give a lot more point bys.
10-29-2018, 05:59 PM
#12
10-29-2018, 06:13 PM
#13
10-30-2018, 04:59 PM
#15
Rennlist Member
I do some open track days in mine. About 715 wheel hp with the methanol system on,.. 625/630 with it off.
I run Ohlins R&T coil-overs. ($2,800 ish)
Overall very nice. Stable on track (Stock suspension was scaryon track,.. and even worse with a DSC module (though the DSC made it nicer on the street).
Only complaint might be that it could use a tad less compression dampening in front.
I am at 16-17 clicks from full stiff in front,.. and about 13 out in the rear.
This Winter I'll have a compression shim taken out of the fronts so I can have a bit more rebound and less comp up there. Probably ending up at 15 clicks out.
Stuff like Penske and Moton are very nice,. but their seals aren't meant for street use,.. and you end up rebuilding them every 10,000 miles. Great for race car,.. but a major hassle for a street car.
Otherwise I have;
GT3 front control arms with 10mm spacers. (11mm including headlight thing)
7mm rear wheel spacers and longer lug bolts
Tarrett rear toe links with optional locks
Porsche billet cup LSD
Still run stock sway-bars and end-links.
I run Ohlins R&T coil-overs. ($2,800 ish)
Overall very nice. Stable on track (Stock suspension was scaryon track,.. and even worse with a DSC module (though the DSC made it nicer on the street).
Only complaint might be that it could use a tad less compression dampening in front.
I am at 16-17 clicks from full stiff in front,.. and about 13 out in the rear.
This Winter I'll have a compression shim taken out of the fronts so I can have a bit more rebound and less comp up there. Probably ending up at 15 clicks out.
Stuff like Penske and Moton are very nice,. but their seals aren't meant for street use,.. and you end up rebuilding them every 10,000 miles. Great for race car,.. but a major hassle for a street car.
Otherwise I have;
GT3 front control arms with 10mm spacers. (11mm including headlight thing)
7mm rear wheel spacers and longer lug bolts
Tarrett rear toe links with optional locks
Porsche billet cup LSD
Still run stock sway-bars and end-links.