Very fine scratches - dark colors
09-03-2007, 03:12 PM
#31
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Just an update:
After many attempts I've given up. The swirl marks, towel mars, spider scratches, whatever you want to call them are still there. I've carefully followed the advice of a well known supplier of car detailing stuff: bought the polisher, different grits of polish, clay bar, micro-fiber towels, etc., etc. (I'll not name the company, because I believe they've done their level best). I've come to three conclusions:
1. I and the dealer have so f*d up the car before I started this process that it is beyond a 'detailing' procedure to fix.
2. I'm completely incompetent.
3. Some degree of mars, scratches, marks are unavoidable and dare I say acceptable. For example, I picked one spot on my car, worked on it late into the night, shone a halogen light on the spot and it looked like I had it licked. NOPE, in the bright sunlight of the following day, looking at the same sport at a very specific angle - THERE THEY WERE.
The good news, I sure did learn a lot about detailing a car.
P.S. Anyone know of a 'concours' detailer in the Western North Carolina area!
After many attempts I've given up. The swirl marks, towel mars, spider scratches, whatever you want to call them are still there. I've carefully followed the advice of a well known supplier of car detailing stuff: bought the polisher, different grits of polish, clay bar, micro-fiber towels, etc., etc. (I'll not name the company, because I believe they've done their level best). I've come to three conclusions:
1. I and the dealer have so f*d up the car before I started this process that it is beyond a 'detailing' procedure to fix.
2. I'm completely incompetent.
3. Some degree of mars, scratches, marks are unavoidable and dare I say acceptable. For example, I picked one spot on my car, worked on it late into the night, shone a halogen light on the spot and it looked like I had it licked. NOPE, in the bright sunlight of the following day, looking at the same sport at a very specific angle - THERE THEY WERE.
The good news, I sure did learn a lot about detailing a car.
P.S. Anyone know of a 'concours' detailer in the Western North Carolina area!
The only non Griot product I use is the wax, I prefer Pinnacle Souveran for black although P21S is not bad either.
Good luck.
09-03-2007, 03:27 PM
#32
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The funny thing is, when I described not seeing the marks under the halogen light, and seeing them under sunlight, the tech I spoke to did not offer much more advice. And he has been extremely helpful and patient.
Next time I'm in San Diego I'll give you a call, I'd love to see your car.
Next time I'm in San Diego I'll give you a call, I'd love to see your car.
09-03-2007, 03:27 PM
#33
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Random Orbitals can totally screw up a good paint job in no time with the wrong procedures and materials.
Try this, simple as it sounds:
3M Swirl Remover for Dark Colors
Use a microfiber (new/clean) and work on just one panel in linear strokes, front to back (maybe the hood or a fender to start). Go slowly and methodically, do not rush it, and just take your time.
Follow with a good Paint Cleaner like P21S, then your favorite wax. Before you start, wash the car with dawn liquid to first get nearly all the previous stuff off the finish before you get going with the swirl remover. No need for RO or any other machine work at this point, just go by hand (the car is not that big) and try it this way to see if you can knock down the swirls.
Try this, simple as it sounds:
3M Swirl Remover for Dark Colors
Use a microfiber (new/clean) and work on just one panel in linear strokes, front to back (maybe the hood or a fender to start). Go slowly and methodically, do not rush it, and just take your time.
Follow with a good Paint Cleaner like P21S, then your favorite wax. Before you start, wash the car with dawn liquid to first get nearly all the previous stuff off the finish before you get going with the swirl remover. No need for RO or any other machine work at this point, just go by hand (the car is not that big) and try it this way to see if you can knock down the swirls.
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Eric
Chief Plug Guy
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2022 GT3 Touring
2009 997 Turbo Cab
2018 M2 6sp
Gone but not forgotten
2004 C4S Cabriolet
1999 C2 Cab
09-04-2007, 02:52 AM
#34
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please try & post a pic... maybe one of us **** detailers can help ya. also, fwiw: if a car finish has a small scratch that's beyond polish-repair... it then becomes a game of getting the light reflect it so it shows the least possible. with some products building up a shine w/ several coats of wax can help.
it's sounds as if your clearcoat is scratched pretty bad... if that's the case i'd consult a very good body shop & have it looked @... wet sanding w/ a very high grit is done by some shops on new pcars to get rid of orange peel, etc. but really have to watch the clearcoat thickness...
bol
ps: i have 2 black pcars w/ no swirls & use griots too. (no aff'l)
it's sounds as if your clearcoat is scratched pretty bad... if that's the case i'd consult a very good body shop & have it looked @... wet sanding w/ a very high grit is done by some shops on new pcars to get rid of orange peel, etc. but really have to watch the clearcoat thickness...
bol
ps: i have 2 black pcars w/ no swirls & use griots too. (no aff'l)
09-23-2007, 10:44 AM
#35
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Just an update:
After many attempts I've given up. The swirl marks, towel mars, spider scratches, whatever you want to call them are still there. I've carefully followed the advice of a well known supplier of car detailing stuff: bought the polisher, different grits of polish, clay bar, micro-fiber towels, etc., etc. (I'll not name the company, because I believe they've done their level best). I've come to three conclusions:
1. I and the dealer have so f*d up the car before I started this process that it is beyond a 'detailing' procedure to fix.
2. I'm completely incompetent.
3. Some degree of mars, scratches, marks are unavoidable and dare I say acceptable. For example, I picked one spot on my car, worked on it late into the night, shone a halogen light on the spot and it looked like I had it licked. NOPE, in the bright sunlight of the following day, looking at the same sport at a very specific angle - THERE THEY WERE.
The good news, I sure did learn a lot about detailing a car.
P.S. Anyone know of a 'concours' detailer in the Western North Carolina area!
After many attempts I've given up. The swirl marks, towel mars, spider scratches, whatever you want to call them are still there. I've carefully followed the advice of a well known supplier of car detailing stuff: bought the polisher, different grits of polish, clay bar, micro-fiber towels, etc., etc. (I'll not name the company, because I believe they've done their level best). I've come to three conclusions:
1. I and the dealer have so f*d up the car before I started this process that it is beyond a 'detailing' procedure to fix.
2. I'm completely incompetent.
3. Some degree of mars, scratches, marks are unavoidable and dare I say acceptable. For example, I picked one spot on my car, worked on it late into the night, shone a halogen light on the spot and it looked like I had it licked. NOPE, in the bright sunlight of the following day, looking at the same sport at a very specific angle - THERE THEY WERE.
The good news, I sure did learn a lot about detailing a car.
P.S. Anyone know of a 'concours' detailer in the Western North Carolina area!
So take a moment, step back and breath deeply....all is not lost here, you're not incompetent.
There are mainly 2 types of scratches which cause many people to freak out. 1) Swirls and 2) Halo scratches.
Just about everyone wrongly calls every mark and marr on the car a "swirl" but to most professional detailers a swirl is caused by the incorrect use of a high speed polisher, well let me also clarify that a bit more also. A swirl, also called "buffer trails" and "halograms" are the results of high speed polishing/compounding and are an expected result of that machines use. The error comes from the operator not finishing out the proper steps to ensure a swirl free finish.
It is the goal of a professional detailer to (after a proper diagnose of the paint) "level" the paint down and what this means is that ALL scratches have one thing in common, they all have a raised edge which catches the light and reflects it back at you. Those edges must then be brought down by way of abrasion. So in reality the scratch is NOT being removed but rather the paint which surrounds the scratch is being brought down to the "level" of the scratch, thus the term we use, "paint leveling". A micro thin layer of paint is being removed or abraded away. So buffer swirls are micro scratches left in the paint from using an abrasive pad/product combo and then not finishing the polishing work.
A swirl or swirls look like a 3D ribbon which flows over and across your paint. These are most noticeable on dark colors like blacks, reds and blues.
Halo scratches on the other hand take on the appearance of circular scratches or "halo's" which cover the surface of your car. These are not circular scratches though but rather a multitude of random and irregular scratches that appear to be circles. These are usually introduced by everyday wear and tear which comes from washing, drying, wiping off dust, placing objects on the car and even driving the car, etc. For the most part halo scratches are deeper than buffer swirls (random orbit machines do not cause buffer swirls) and can be a real pain to correct.
So all scratches have 2 things in common. They all edges which need to be brought down and they all need to be removed through abrasive means. Only really serious buffer swirls need drastic means to correct as most can be dealt with in 2 mildly abrasive steps.
Halo scratches though can go much deeper and may need more aggressive means to correct and sadly the PC may fall short of completing this task. Paint is leveled down through "heat and friction" and the PC, along with most random orbit machines, just don't generate enough heat and friction to properly level paint down. This is why a professional will use a high speed rotary to level down paint as it produces a lot of heat and friction BUT this is where costly mistakes can happen also if one is not careful. Too much heat and friction and the paint can be ruined in the blink of an eye....which will then shed many tears!
Here's the kicker though.....to properly correct paint, especially to remove halo scratches, one may need to temporarily mar the paint up even more BUT this marring will be of a more uniform pattern and smaller or finer in scale and likewise the next polishing step will make them even finer until they no longer appear (of course not all scratches can be safely removed). To better illustrate
this imagine your cars paint being made of wood. As in all wood working you come to a super fine finish by way of working down the abrasive scale, from say a 100 grit paper down to 1000, each step removing the scratches from the previous step. So it is with paint correction.
You may need a high speed paint correction to give the paint its initial paint leveling, which should bring most of the marring down to an even level leaving behind uniform marring, The next step will be with a mild polishing pad, mild polish and again the high speed rotary to remove the remaining finer scratches and perhaps at this stage it can be finished using a random orbit polisher and a fine finishing pad and polish.
Porsche paint is very soft (except for the Cayenne and the single stage paints) and can be easy to correct but difficult to keep in that condition. So I believe I can be of help to you in your goals but first tell me:
1) What has been done so far to your paint?
2) What tools and products you have?
Lastly, a clay bar will not remove scratches. You can clay your paint until your hand falls off but it ain't removing any scratch.
Also, post up a picture of the problem areas so I can get a better idea of how to help you out.
Anthony
09-23-2007, 11:24 AM
#36
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I totally agree with mastiffdog on Dealers washing your car. The first scratches I noticed on my car were after the last time it was serviced, the dealer washed the car and Voila! it's got a nice collection of fine micro scratches. On my color they are not as visible as a black or midnight blue but it sucks that this happened at the Dealer.
09-23-2007, 11:41 AM
#37
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The wash bay monkeys might make minimum wage at best. At our dealership, I doubt they can even read the labels on the cleaning products they use. Everything is cleaned with a box of shop towels - microfiber is nowhere to be seen.
09-23-2007, 01:18 PM
#38
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First thing I tell the service writer is Do Not Wash - I make sure he puts it on the service order and also leave a piece of paper on the passenger seat with the same message in big, bold letters.
09-23-2007, 01:52 PM
#39
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It really unbeleiveable that we have beautiful high end cars and dealers who can maintain all of their systems and components, but who can't accomplish something as simple as a car wash without damaging our paint. You expect your car to return from the dealer in better condition than when you left it. I would rather they screw up mechanical item that can be replaced than screw up my paint.
I had my SS illuminated sills installed at the same dealer and the paint on both door sills had deep scratches next to the end of the SS sills and on the rocker panels below the door. They gave me the old plastic sills back at my request and they were in tiny pieces, obviously they had a very tough time getting them off and they damaged my paint in the process, all of the posts I have seen on installing the sills reccomend heating them with a heat gun to soften the old adhesive, there is no way in hell they did this, they just ripped and pried and scraped until the old sills came off. I am sorry I did not do the sill install myself.
The dealer kindly offered to put touch up paint on the scratches! If I have them re-paint the rocker panels and sills I will probably end up with more problems.
I had my SS illuminated sills installed at the same dealer and the paint on both door sills had deep scratches next to the end of the SS sills and on the rocker panels below the door. They gave me the old plastic sills back at my request and they were in tiny pieces, obviously they had a very tough time getting them off and they damaged my paint in the process, all of the posts I have seen on installing the sills reccomend heating them with a heat gun to soften the old adhesive, there is no way in hell they did this, they just ripped and pried and scraped until the old sills came off. I am sorry I did not do the sill install myself.
The dealer kindly offered to put touch up paint on the scratches! If I have them re-paint the rocker panels and sills I will probably end up with more problems.
09-23-2007, 02:46 PM
#40
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First, many detailing forums are full of crap.....Why? Because most of the people posting pictures on them and their "Before and After" shots are done in such a way as to show the horrible "BEFORE" in direct sun or with halogen lamps on them and then the "AFTER" shots are always in the garage under flattering light or out in the sun but always in the shade or at some angle that only shows a nice reflection. Then everyone "Ohh's and Ah's" over it but I guarantee you that most of those cars don't look like that in the flesh.
So take a moment, step back and breath deeply....all is not lost here, you're not incompetent.
There are mainly 2 types of scratches which cause many people to freak out. 1) Swirls and 2) Halo scratches.
Just about everyone wrongly calls every mark and marr on the car a "swirl" but to most professional detailers a swirl is caused by the incorrect use of a high speed polisher, well let me also clarify that a bit more also. A swirl, also called "buffer trails" and "halograms" are the results of high speed polishing/compounding and are an expected result of that machines use. The error comes from the operator not finishing out the proper steps to ensure a swirl free finish.
It is the goal of a professional detailer to (after a proper diagnose of the paint) "level" the paint down and what this means is that ALL scratches have one thing in common, they all have a raised edge which catches the light and reflects it back at you. Those edges must then be brought down by way of abrasion. So in reality the scratch is NOT being removed but rather the paint which surrounds the scratch is being brought down to the "level" of the scratch, thus the term we use, "paint leveling". A micro thin layer of paint is being removed or abraded away. So buffer swirls are micro scratches left in the paint from using an abrasive pad/product combo and then not finishing the polishing work.
A swirl or swirls look like a 3D ribbon which flows over and across your paint. These are most noticeable on dark colors like blacks, reds and blues.
Halo scratches on the other hand take on the appearance of circular scratches or "halo's" which cover the surface of your car. These are not circular scratches though but rather a multitude of random and irregular scratches that appear to be circles. These are usually introduced by everyday wear and tear which comes from washing, drying, wiping off dust, placing objects on the car and even driving the car, etc. For the most part halo scratches are deeper than buffer swirls (random orbit machines do not cause buffer swirls) and can be a real pain to correct.
So all scratches have 2 things in common. They all edges which need to be brought down and they all need to be removed through abrasive means. Only really serious buffer swirls need drastic means to correct as most can be dealt with in 2 mildly abrasive steps.
Halo scratches though can go much deeper and may need more aggressive means to correct and sadly the PC may fall short of completing this task. Paint is leveled down through "heat and friction" and the PC, along with most random orbit machines, just don't generate enough heat and friction to properly level paint down. This is why a professional will use a high speed rotary to level down paint as it produces a lot of heat and friction BUT this is where costly mistakes can happen also if one is not careful. Too much heat and friction and the paint can be ruined in the blink of an eye....which will then shed many tears!
Here's the kicker though.....to properly correct paint, especially to remove halo scratches, one may need to temporarily mar the paint up even more BUT this marring will be of a more uniform pattern and smaller or finer in scale and likewise the next polishing step will make them even finer until they no longer appear (of course not all scratches can be safely removed). To better illustrate
this imagine your cars paint being made of wood. As in all wood working you come to a super fine finish by way of working down the abrasive scale, from say a 100 grit paper down to 1000, each step removing the scratches from the previous step. So it is with paint correction.
You may need a high speed paint correction to give the paint its initial paint leveling, which should bring most of the marring down to an even level leaving behind uniform marring, The next step will be with a mild polishing pad, mild polish and again the high speed rotary to remove the remaining finer scratches and perhaps at this stage it can be finished using a random orbit polisher and a fine finishing pad and polish.
Porsche paint is very soft (except for the Cayenne and the single stage paints) and can be easy to correct but difficult to keep in that condition. So I believe I can be of help to you in your goals but first tell me:
1) What has been done so far to your paint?
2) What tools and products you have?
Lastly, a clay bar will not remove scratches. You can clay your paint until your hand falls off but it ain't removing any scratch.
Also, post up a picture of the problem areas so I can get a better idea of how to help you out.
Anthony
So take a moment, step back and breath deeply....all is not lost here, you're not incompetent.
There are mainly 2 types of scratches which cause many people to freak out. 1) Swirls and 2) Halo scratches.
Just about everyone wrongly calls every mark and marr on the car a "swirl" but to most professional detailers a swirl is caused by the incorrect use of a high speed polisher, well let me also clarify that a bit more also. A swirl, also called "buffer trails" and "halograms" are the results of high speed polishing/compounding and are an expected result of that machines use. The error comes from the operator not finishing out the proper steps to ensure a swirl free finish.
It is the goal of a professional detailer to (after a proper diagnose of the paint) "level" the paint down and what this means is that ALL scratches have one thing in common, they all have a raised edge which catches the light and reflects it back at you. Those edges must then be brought down by way of abrasion. So in reality the scratch is NOT being removed but rather the paint which surrounds the scratch is being brought down to the "level" of the scratch, thus the term we use, "paint leveling". A micro thin layer of paint is being removed or abraded away. So buffer swirls are micro scratches left in the paint from using an abrasive pad/product combo and then not finishing the polishing work.
A swirl or swirls look like a 3D ribbon which flows over and across your paint. These are most noticeable on dark colors like blacks, reds and blues.
Halo scratches on the other hand take on the appearance of circular scratches or "halo's" which cover the surface of your car. These are not circular scratches though but rather a multitude of random and irregular scratches that appear to be circles. These are usually introduced by everyday wear and tear which comes from washing, drying, wiping off dust, placing objects on the car and even driving the car, etc. For the most part halo scratches are deeper than buffer swirls (random orbit machines do not cause buffer swirls) and can be a real pain to correct.
So all scratches have 2 things in common. They all edges which need to be brought down and they all need to be removed through abrasive means. Only really serious buffer swirls need drastic means to correct as most can be dealt with in 2 mildly abrasive steps.
Halo scratches though can go much deeper and may need more aggressive means to correct and sadly the PC may fall short of completing this task. Paint is leveled down through "heat and friction" and the PC, along with most random orbit machines, just don't generate enough heat and friction to properly level paint down. This is why a professional will use a high speed rotary to level down paint as it produces a lot of heat and friction BUT this is where costly mistakes can happen also if one is not careful. Too much heat and friction and the paint can be ruined in the blink of an eye....which will then shed many tears!
Here's the kicker though.....to properly correct paint, especially to remove halo scratches, one may need to temporarily mar the paint up even more BUT this marring will be of a more uniform pattern and smaller or finer in scale and likewise the next polishing step will make them even finer until they no longer appear (of course not all scratches can be safely removed). To better illustrate
this imagine your cars paint being made of wood. As in all wood working you come to a super fine finish by way of working down the abrasive scale, from say a 100 grit paper down to 1000, each step removing the scratches from the previous step. So it is with paint correction.
You may need a high speed paint correction to give the paint its initial paint leveling, which should bring most of the marring down to an even level leaving behind uniform marring, The next step will be with a mild polishing pad, mild polish and again the high speed rotary to remove the remaining finer scratches and perhaps at this stage it can be finished using a random orbit polisher and a fine finishing pad and polish.
Porsche paint is very soft (except for the Cayenne and the single stage paints) and can be easy to correct but difficult to keep in that condition. So I believe I can be of help to you in your goals but first tell me:
1) What has been done so far to your paint?
2) What tools and products you have?
Lastly, a clay bar will not remove scratches. You can clay your paint until your hand falls off but it ain't removing any scratch.
Also, post up a picture of the problem areas so I can get a better idea of how to help you out.
Anthony
09-23-2007, 02:50 PM
#41
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I bought a black turbo used with 4800 miles with tons of scratches! I just got it polished professionally
and still the scratches are there the detailer said no matter what I do theres always gonna be scratches.
WTF!!?!. Iono I'm pretty choked....
and still the scratches are there the detailer said no matter what I do theres always gonna be scratches.
WTF!!?!. Iono I'm pretty choked....
09-23-2007, 03:37 PM
#42
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I'm going to keep trying, but at the end of the day, I think your detailer is right. My detailer said the same thing, and the tech at Girot basically said the same thing.
09-23-2007, 06:38 PM
#43
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This may be an oversimplification, but I tried this stuff (maquiars nxt - some sort of high-tech polymer) on my car, and was pleasantly surprised at the amount of "reduced" swirl visibility, key word being reduced. Interestingly enough, the more i use it, the fewer swirls i see. I have done it about 3 times and am quite impressed with the results. BTW, i have glossy black '05 TTS.....and a glossy black Lexus GS400 and a glossy black Acura RSX Type S, and everytime a car gets dirty, i swear i'll never buy a black car again, and every time after i have just waxed one of them, wonder how I could possibly get any other colour
http://www.meguiars.com/?liquid-car-...ation-Tech-Wax
Jag.
http://www.meguiars.com/?liquid-car-...ation-Tech-Wax
Jag.
Last edited by Jagsiva; 09-23-2007 at 07:15 PM.
09-24-2007, 12:10 PM
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Thank you so much for your response. I've taken some pictures which I think will accurately show the 'halo' scratches. (From your description, that is what I have.) I've been trying to upload my pictures, but I've been having problems with the upload function. As soon as I get it worked out I'll upload. Can I send them to via PM or e-mail?
09-24-2007, 12:25 PM
#45
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Hey,
Great pictures and yes those are more in the area of halo scratches and it's good in a way because no one has, as far as I can see in the pictures, taken a high speed rotary to the paint yet which means your clear coat is fine.
I'm very positive I can help you out with this marring but first tell me what you have on hand in terms of polisher, if any and what type, pads and polishes?
I may recommend a few pads and polishes for you to get if you don't already have them.
I'm home today watching my mom who is ill so I'll be watching the boards off and on through out the day.
Anthony
Great pictures and yes those are more in the area of halo scratches and it's good in a way because no one has, as far as I can see in the pictures, taken a high speed rotary to the paint yet which means your clear coat is fine.
I'm very positive I can help you out with this marring but first tell me what you have on hand in terms of polisher, if any and what type, pads and polishes?
I may recommend a few pads and polishes for you to get if you don't already have them.
I'm home today watching my mom who is ill so I'll be watching the boards off and on through out the day.
Anthony