TB993tt

I have noticed increasing on the 6speed site how commercial everything is getting with new "tuners" popping up offering their 6/700+hp tunes for the 997tt all at very cheap prices - some great marketing going on from all of them and no doubt winning lots of business.

I saw EVOMS have their latest PDF catalogs available for download:

http://www.evomsit.com/catalogs.htm

These really are superbly done and for the casual 997tt owner it is like the best toy shop in the world, superb pictures, psuedo technical explanations, lots of use of the word "insane", actual acceleration data and all backed up by the standing mile world record car which achieved that 231mph run....

Something was not adding up for me as I know that over around 830NM (610lb/ft) the 997tt motor will bend its standard rods and EVOMS (and others) were claiming way in excess of this torque as bolt ons with stock rods - something was amiss....

I was interested to see the UK 997tt feature quite a lot in the e catalogue with its Martini stripes and GT2 spoilers it looks awesome and it proudly boasts its EVOMS 727hp with 753lb/ft with bolt ons.
Evo use it as an example of an independantly tested car and use the actual dyno sheet (done by Regal Autosport in the UK on their Mustang) in the e-catalogue:



Here is the actual dyno sheet from Regal:


So far so good, a georgeous car sporting an independantly "dyno proven" 727hp/753lb/ft......
Then along comes an independant magazine test:

http://www.cargraphic.de/stepone/dat...world-0409.pdf

The test starts by talking about how EVO have "gone fairly easy on the torque in the mid range" but 753lb/ft is 1024NM - it is an "insane" amount of torque and would bend a stock rod in a nanosecond !!! what are they on about ?
Then they test the car and low and behold they find it has "a restricted mid range torque so it can be matched by the DMS car lower down" but the DMS car only claims 620lb/ft (843NM) so what is going on ?

Later they comment "under sustained acceleration a slight pulsing could be felt in the power delivery" - this isn't quite the picture excellent e-catalogue paints of the painstaking highest tech development of this ultimate software !

Anyway, getting to the acceleration numbers:


So if we take 60-160mph through the gears:
9ff 600hp = 17s
9ff 730hp = 13.6s
EVO 727hp = 16.2s

and for good measure (since the EVOMS car was wearing "draggy" GT2 spoilers:

997GT2 523hp = 16.3s (see below)



So WTF is going on - the car obviously is up to spec since it registered those awesome, insane dyno numbers which EVOMS actually used as an example (in their excellent e-catalogue) - obviously the dyno numbers are complete and utter tosh, the car has about 620hp/600lb/ft and a dodgy power delivery/torque curve (the surging described)....

So what about the claimed numbers ?:



I have no doubt that EVOMS can build cars to do these numbers, just like the extreme boost car which did the 231mph but it appears that customers are not getting these levels of power....

It is not surprising since EVO (and others) are in a hard place, between themselves tuners (mostly US ones but a few Euro ones have joined in the fun) have pumped up the power/torque numbers game so effectively using spurious chassis dyno runs that we end up where they cannot give all their customers a real 700hp since the cost is exorbitant and the engine is lifed like a race car and the customer would not pay he would simply read 6 Speed and go to the next "tuner" who can give him his 700hp - and the beauty of all this is that because 600lb/ft is a LOT of torque every tuned 997tt feels like it has 7/800 hp

Edit: Just to note that the price charged for the UK car ~16K Euro, 620hp/600ftlbs is actually a very good price !

eclou

Toby just wait till you get a whiff of the Vivid and TPC offerings. I think you'll likely have a stroke!

pete95zhn

Toby, shhhh...somebody might notice that the emperor has no clothes... Or should I just say that questioning RL sponsors could get you banned.

bbywu

I've noticed that despite their announcements about their new product offerings, they haven't offered any objective data beyond dynos. No trap speeds, no pbox runs to correlate with dyno readings.

TB993tt

bbywu
I am drawn to read 6bling like a rubber necker at a car crash...... The thread about the 997 GT2 having Ti rods as stock ? You are right it does NOT have Ti rods, Porsche only ever fitted Ti rods to some of the race turbos many years ago....
Quite how the "bolt on boys" are getting 700hp on stock rods without them bending (Switzer I believe) is a mystery... The limit for Euro/Autobahn use is ~840NM/620ftlbs (engine dyno) RS Tuning have had a few cars back at the 830NM level from Cargraphic bolt ons with bent rods and in need of Carrillos. I can only assume these US cars are barely driven or fitted with extra special US specific rods

Alex (UK)

Very interesting analysis Toby! Given what you've said to me in the past though even Cargraphic/RS-Tuning can exaggerate torque figures in particular. I agree that my 800Nm should certainly be making my clutch slip, which it isn't. So I probably have 765Nm as originally claimed when my powerkit came out.

I am also wondering if the 700+ BHP kits in the US perhaps are 700 with 98-100 RON 'race-gas' but given typical stations in the US have nowhere near this level of octane on offer then most customers are getting about 600?! Obviously Nick's Martini wrapped EVT700 car would be run on 98 RON available here in the UK so that could explain Regal's output numbers albeit not the fact that the stock rods are holding...

bbywu

I am still very very confused about the HP and torque numbers. I've given up on tuner dynos and just look at trap speed and pbox runs, 60-130 runs.

There is obviously marketing influence in the publication of dyno numbers. A ECU + 200 cell exhaust + headers + intercoolers and all of the sudden you are at 600+ hp? Yet it traps slower than my "euro" ECU + exhaust on the same day.

As for the Ti conrods...I figured if the part numbers are the same, the part itself must be the same. I don't know how to respond regarding Porsche's window sticker or what their tuners state. I guess I'm just a novice.

TT Surgeon

I was on the track recently with one of the '700 club' guys (WGI), now mine dyno'd at ~480 to the wheels on farnbacher-loles's dynodynamics dyno (FL don't BS), I gotta say I routinely passed him in every session. There is no way a 550ish hp car should be consistantly pulling on a '700 club' car, but I was. I think sumthin' ain't right!

bbywu

Kinda like how headers and intercoolers some how gives a driver 40 more horsepower for a 620 kit. Oh...I forgot...it's the boost recirulation valves...

TB993tt

The only explanation for Regal's dyno numbers after looking how the car actually accelerates against others is that the dyno numbers are fantasy and somehow the Mustang can be made to show these (hugely) exaggerated outputs ......

TT Surgeon - I also heard anecdotally that this car in question was much slower on the straights (during a track day) than a stock 997GT2.......

Bottom line for this owner is that he got his £19K worth of hp, (still good value compared to some Euro Tuners) but it is about 100hp and 150ftlbs less than quoted by the vendor.

TT Gasman

I can't understand why some of these tuners don't pony up and run their stuff on the engine dyno?
Maybe there's a reason Ruf and others rebuild the motors on their higher HP conversions? You can do a lot of damage before a rod actually exits the cylinder block. Rod bolts stretch, bearings score and rods may be only slightly bent yet the car will still "run good".

TB993tt

I am not certain such facility exists in the US ? Andial used to use one from memory ? The problem with running and tuning these turbo engines on the engine dyno is controlling IAT so it replicates the street, RUF and RS use custom made mains water cooled intercoolers fitted in series with the air/air intercoolers in place of their old methods of blowing ambient air through the intercooler cores during the dyno session. Judd in the UK imerse the intercooler in a mains water tank......
Your second paragraph is what I am thinking, and that the very powerful engines built by the likes of EVOMS (which actually perform) are simply not doing the loaded mileage to cause these known "race" wear items (stretch rod bolts, warping heads, oval cylinder cases etc). Unloaded 8 second dyno runs and a few mile drags are not the same as an hours fun on the Autobahn like my playtime below (posted again 'cos it brings back good memories ) where the constant loading in5th and 6th really stresses the components.....



My 993tt ran fine with 550ftlbs, it was only when the engine was opened for other work that the bent stock rods were noticed !

TT Gasman

"I am not certain such facility exists in the US ? "

Every Nascar team in the US has a full engine dyno , even the old shop that built our drag racing stuff back in the day had an engine dyno. It just requires a substantial cash outlay.

"My 993tt ran fine with 550ftlbs, it was only when the engine was opened for other work that the bent stock rods were noticed ! "

We had this old Pontiac motor, ran great, upon teardown almost every rod was bent too!

jimmer23

Here he goes again everyone.

Toby, you know FULL WELL that there are literally tens (if not hundreds) of verified 60-130 and 1/4 mile datasets on 6SpeedOnline that show what these kits do in REAL LIFE conditions by customer cars - not shop cars. Kevin (KPG) just pulled off a 5.5sec 60-130 on his new EVOMS kit on its first run out of the box - http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-bad-news.html .
This full weight (3800#) and AWD car surely has a very low 5 in it once he gets used to it (he hasn't driven it in over 2yrs). Joe's car (the mile record holder), Scott, Markski, DK996TT's 1000hp 997TT on the stock block, Jitsu, etc etc etc. I know you have a hard time figuring it out, so here's the link to the verified times: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...standings.html

You come off looking like a real jerk to pretty much everyone when you ignore all the empirical data out there. I know it must personally grieve you to know that you've squandered so much money over the years with your uber-German tuners, so I can somewhat understand your constant condescending posts in your efforts to undermine these amazing achievements and make yourself feel better in your little fantasy world. No one is doing 40min sustained 200mph runs in real life, so try to come back to the real world once in awhile to see the advances that are being made.

I'd invite you to participate in a technical discussion on the 6, but know that you won't as you'll be far far out of your depth there.

Cheers

joetwint

+1 Jimmer