Update on tuning 997tt Gen II

TB993tt · 12-17-2009, 06:52 AM

According to Engineers at Weissach testing the 997tt.II Dfi engine revealed a limit of 550-570PS on Porsche engine dyno (~640whp for chassis dynos) with engines destroying themselves at this level of loading.

The causes of destruction are quite fundamental: conrods and piston failures.

What this means for the reliability of the standard 500PS lump is to be seen but overengineered these new lumps are not.

Really can't wait for the American "bolt on boys" to get stuck into this engine.....yeeehaaaa

Alex (UK) · 12-17-2009, 07:15 AM

Great insight - thanks Toby!

So what does mean for the SpeedArt 580PS car? http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-speedart.html

As this is a 'bolt-on' kit also.

...or is the 580PS another example of creative chassis-dyno outputs?!

TB993tt · 12-17-2009, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex (UK)

Great insight - thanks Toby!

So what does mean for the SpeedArt 580PS car? http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-speedart.html

As this is a 'bolt-on' kit also.

...or is the 580PS another example of creative chassis-dyno outputs?!

Speedart are also talking about their 997tt II 650PS bolt on bigger VTG kit

There is going to be the usual blend of horsepower interpretation and just how much loading is the engine getting ie autobahn versus 2nd and 3rd slip lane only to grapple through to be able to see the wood from the trees...... My info is from Porsche development engineers FWIW

911rox · 12-17-2009, 10:09 AM

I look forward to the first of the real life examples of failure... but for now, we can sit back and enjoy the excuses from the 9A1 believers... Bring it on.... Lets see how long before we get to say "told ya' "

TT Surgeon · 12-17-2009, 10:28 AM

This was predictable, that's why they don't race the wet sump m96/97 engines. If it was that easy they would have just slapped a couple of turbos on those wet sumps years ago and called it a day.

TT Gasman · 12-17-2009, 01:56 PM

Not surprising, we've been through this with the m96. No dry sump=no good. Once again to quote Joe Lightfoot, "if it's good it ain't cheap and if it's cheap it ain't good"

GT · 12-18-2009, 09:50 PM

Toby i am a bit confused. What is "550-570hp on porsche engine dyno?" Is that flywheel power? How can chassis dynos give 640 wheel hp as you say equivalent to the above number?
Do you mean that only +50-70hp are possible reliably for the new engine?

boolala · 12-19-2009, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 911rox

I look forward to the first of the real life examples of failure... but for now, we can sit back and enjoy the excuses from the 9A1 believers... Bring it on.... Lets see how long before we get to say "told ya' "

Not clear why you would wish for failure.

What could possibly be behind this from a psychological standpoint?

TT Surgeon · 12-19-2009, 01:54 AM

I think Toby is kidding about the 640hp chassis dyno, he (and I ) prefer true engine dynos like RS, Ruf and FVD use in testing their products in Germany.

boolala · 12-19-2009, 02:33 AM

SO far only speculation on the reliability of the 997.2.

The only hard fact we have, however, is that the stock 997.2 still outperforms the modded 997.1 at much lower overall cost.

911rox · 12-19-2009, 05:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boolala

Not clear why you would wish for failure.

What could possibly be behind this from a psychological standpoint?

Because it will validate what has been argued by numerous people including myself... That Porsche is moving away from making bulletproof vehicles to last a lifetime and is now moving into high profit, mass production crap that people turn over like underwear... It was only weeks ago that Porsche were claiming in some article that over 70% of all vehicles they have ever produced are on the roads today... How long do you think these sort of percentages will be around if they are now engineering failure into their products...

http://www.porsche.com/australia/abo...&id=2009-11-18
Having to re-validate tyres for 50yr old cars- Now that is a an achievement few other manufacturers will ever be able to claim.

The one thing that has seperated Porsche from most other manufacturers in the past has been their commitment to reliability and quality. The M96/7 was the first step in the wrong direction and if their engineers are correct, we will soon see step two... Thus my statement...

TB993tt · 12-19-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT

Toby i am a bit confused. What is "550-570hp on porsche engine dyno?" Is that flywheel power? How can chassis dynos give 640 wheel hp as you say equivalent to the above number?
Do you mean that only +50-70hp are possible reliably for the new engine?

As TT says, joking really about the 640whp. It depends on who is dynoing and on what machine but for sure it is entirely possible to get a chassis dyno to read 640whp which when strapped onto Porsche's engine dyno and measured under load 570hp is all that is being produced at the flywheel,,,,,

GT · 12-20-2009, 12:26 PM

toby, I see what you mean..
911rox, amen! Somebody said it finally in clear words..

I love evolution, I am actually a junky when it comes to tech advancements of any sort but with this 997.2tt it feels like half step fwd, half backwards.. You cant have an engine that is sooo much cheaper to produce as reliable as the GT1 block. I like Tobby I ve also heard from inside P of the limitations/compromises if this new block. I've owned now 4 turbos with that GT1 block and I know what it is capable of.
All the other new parts of 997.2 are truly a step fwd (and i am already retrofitting what I can) but I wish they would have kept and evolved the GT1 engine.. For me PDK is a no-go for now so I'll wait for the 991. Until then my modded 997tt with 738hp/955NM manual/lsd will suffice.

TT Gasman · 12-20-2009, 01:00 PM

PDK was originally developed on the 962 racing platform, it could have easily been used on the GT1 based motors...if they wanted to do it. Sadly, the need for higher profits and lower costs have killed the GT1 engines in the road going cars (GT3s you're next so smoke 'em while you got em). People like booboo never seem to have an answer to the question, if the wet sumps are so great then why aren't they used in the factory race cars?? Why isn't it used in the new GT3RS, a car designed by the Porsche motorsports dept?

desmoc · 12-20-2009, 02:50 PM

^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hi,
Is it possible that Porsche wants to keep the M64 for racing(GT3RS) and the new DFI for public use only ?
most people who buy the new generation turbos will not push their cars that hard(boolala....etc) and that will take care of the reliability figures for the new DFI anyway.
????

12-17-2009, 06:52 AM	#1
TB993tt Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,517	Update on tuning 997tt Gen II According to Engineers at Weissach testing the 997tt.II Dfi engine revealed a limit of 550-570PS on Porsche engine dyno (~640whp for chassis dynos) with engines destroying themselves at this level of loading. The causes of destruction are quite fundamental: conrods and piston failures. What this means for the reliability of the standard 500PS lump is to be seen but overengineered these new lumps are not. Really can't wait for the American "bolt on boys" to get stuck into this engine.....yeeehaaaa __________________ 997GT2 3.9 RS Tuning 2011 makeover 993tt RS Tuning 2006 street 3.8 MAF spec Rennlist User#386

12-17-2009, 10:28 AM	#5
TT Surgeon Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 6,557	This was predictable, that's why they don't race the wet sump m96/97 engines. If it was that easy they would have just slapped a couple of turbos on those wet sumps years ago and called it a day. __________________ Chris '12 panamera 4 blk/blk '96 993TT Midnite/blue-grey '07 997 TT Midnight/Sea-gone, fast, missed '87 930 slant black/red 505 Rennlist member no. 041015-4836

12-17-2009, 01:56 PM	#6
TT Gasman Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,964	Not surprising, we've been through this with the m96. No dry sump=no good. Once again to quote Joe Lightfoot, "if it's good it ain't cheap and if it's cheap it ain't good" __________________ Doug '07 997TT...550 RUF '08 Cayenne GTS '83 ROW 930 Rennlist Member # 020208-3425 "Screw you, we're from Texas"- Ray Wylie Hubbard

12-19-2009, 01:54 AM	#9
TT Surgeon Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 6,557	I think Toby is kidding about the 640hp chassis dyno, he (and I ) prefer true engine dynos like RS, Ruf and FVD use in testing their products in Germany. __________________ Chris '12 panamera 4 blk/blk '96 993TT Midnite/blue-grey '07 997 TT Midnight/Sea-gone, fast, missed '87 930 slant black/red 505 Rennlist member no. 041015-4836

12-19-2009, 02:33 AM	#10
boolala Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 3,808	SO far only speculation on the reliability of the 997.2. The only hard fact we have, however, is that the stock 997.2 still outperforms the modded 997.1 at much lower overall cost. __________________ Boo Lala <- Why isn't my name here? '05 997 '10 S550 4 Matic

12-17-2009, 07:15 AM	#2
Alex (UK) User Join Date: May 2006 Location: UK Posts: 348	Great insight - thanks Toby! So what does mean for the SpeedArt 580PS car? http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...-speedart.html As this is a 'bolt-on' kit also. ...or is the 580PS another example of creative chassis-dyno outputs?!

12-17-2009, 10:09 AM	#4
911rox Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Melb, Planet OZ Posts: 1,263	I look forward to the first of the real life examples of failure... but for now, we can sit back and enjoy the excuses from the 9A1 believers... Bring it on.... Lets see how long before we get to say "told ya' "

12-18-2009, 09:50 PM	#7
GT User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 120	Toby i am a bit confused. What is "550-570hp on porsche engine dyno?" Is that flywheel power? How can chassis dynos give 640 wheel hp as you say equivalent to the above number? Do you mean that only +50-70hp are possible reliably for the new engine?

12-20-2009, 12:26 PM	#13
GT User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London Posts: 120	toby, I see what you mean.. 911rox, amen! Somebody said it finally in clear words.. I love evolution, I am actually a junky when it comes to tech advancements of any sort but with this 997.2tt it feels like half step fwd, half backwards.. You cant have an engine that is sooo much cheaper to produce as reliable as the GT1 block. I like Tobby I ve also heard from inside P of the limitations/compromises if this new block. I've owned now 4 turbos with that GT1 block and I know what it is capable of. All the other new parts of 997.2 are truly a step fwd (and i am already retrofitting what I can) but I wish they would have kept and evolved the GT1 engine.. For me PDK is a no-go for now so I'll wait for the 991. Until then my modded 997tt with 738hp/955NM manual/lsd will suffice.

12-20-2009, 01:00 PM	#14
TT Gasman Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 2,964	PDK was originally developed on the 962 racing platform, it could have easily been used on the GT1 based motors...if they wanted to do it. Sadly, the need for higher profits and lower costs have killed the GT1 engines in the road going cars (GT3s you're next so smoke 'em while you got em). People like booboo never seem to have an answer to the question, if the wet sumps are so great then why aren't they used in the factory race cars?? Why isn't it used in the new GT3RS, a car designed by the Porsche motorsports dept? __________________ Doug '07 997TT...550 RUF '08 Cayenne GTS '83 ROW 930 Rennlist Member # 020208-3425 "Screw you, we're from Texas"- Ray Wylie Hubbard

12-20-2009, 02:50 PM	#15
desmoc User Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 32	^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Hi, Is it possible that Porsche wants to keep the M64 for racing(GT3RS) and the new DFI for public use only ? most people who buy the new generation turbos will not push their cars that hard(boolala....etc) and that will take care of the reliability figures for the new DFI anyway. ????

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