TurboDoc

The local dealer called me this weekend with an allocation for a 2011 Turbo; not a Turbo S. I really want a manual transmission Turbo S which of course is not available. I know the PDK is great but for 180K I should be able to build the car I want. Mags say I am in the 10% minority who would buy a manual over a PDK. This is my seventh Porsche and third turbo so I am not new to this.

I am left with a decision to build a manual 2011 Turbo or wait for the next generation turbo in the hope that a manual will be an option. Any thoughts on when the next gen turbo arrives? (my guess is Fall 2012) Does anyone agree that a 2011 turbo is a compromise when the turbo S is out there? Why not have a no cost option for a manual on the turbo S? The things written in magazines about torque and longevity of a manual in the turbo S as the rationale are ridiculous given the GT2RS comes only with a manual and the same warranty.

malmasri

GT2RS and turbo S have differnt engines...GT1 block vs DFI...DFI is a new and perhaps less superior engine...Porsches move to the DFI is justified by cost and emission/economy...the 991 model will be out in 2011 which means the turbo is at least 2 years away from launch,odds are no nmanual, If you insist on a manual then I suggest you spec a turbo as such and you can always get more hp with a flash.

Macster

If you want a Turbo S with a 6-speed manual I think you're going to be in for a long wait.

Almost to a car maker, manuals are on the way out. That 10% number of buyers who choose a manual over something else is quite accurate. Many 'exotic' car makers have discontinued the manual transmission option. You get a F1 style or dual clutch style automatic and that's it.

This is especially true of cars made in an EU country and sold there (and elsewhere) because the EU drive cycle to classify the car with regards to its fuel consumption and CO2 emissions is more easily spoofed with an automatic that short shifts the car into a high as gear as soon as possible.

If you want a Turbo S the question I guess becomes are you willing to accept the Turbo S with a PDK transmission?

The other question is if the answer to the above is 'no' then can you accept a base (?) Turbo with a standard 6-speed transmission?

I've never driven a car with a PDK but were I you I'd seek out a test drive/ride in one and give the PDK a fair shake.

As I mentioned before, in Redwood City CA some months ago I pulled up next to a new Lambo in my 03 Turbo with its 6-speed manual. When the light changed while no drag race took place the Lambo driver accelerated his car away with some urgency and I suspect with a bit of showing off. (Heck, if I owned a Lambo I'd show it off too...)

I could tell when the Lambo driver shifted the manu-matic transmission by the engine sounds. The shifting was just 123, nearly as quick as that (with a very nice exhaust sound from the engine as the next gear was being selected).

The Lambo's shifting made my Turbo's 6-speed's shifting seem tractor like.

The Lambo driver had his car in maybe 4th gear by the time he had completed the left hand turn -- he had the inside lane on the 2 left hand turn lanes -- and gone may a hundred or so feet down the road, while in my Turbo I was still negotiating the turn and I was in the process of shifting from 1st to 2nd.

It is your call of course, but I think there are worse things in life than having to accept a new Turbo S with a PDK transmission.

Sincerely,

Macster.

TurboDoc

I understand the different engines, however, I still believe the manual can handle the 30 hp bump from the different ECU etc. in a turbo S when compared to the turbo. I think this comes down to a decision by Porsche that given the low demand for a manual in this car they decided to offer only the PDK. Is it really true that 90% of the current turbo owners out there prefer PDK? I don't buy it. Sure the guy in the Lambo or Ferrari is faster but they buy that car to show off and I want the manual for my old fashioned enjoyment; less computer and more of my driving skills put to the test.

Macster

The 'old' 6-speed may be limited regarding the torque it can deal with, reliably. I don't recall coming across anything specifically on this for the Turbo S but I have come across info for other cars that indicates the lines between what is not too much hp (and torque) and what is too much hp/torque are not that far apart. There isn't much grey area. The transmission is good up to a certain point and beyond that it is overstressed.

Since the PDK is a $3K (approx.) extra cost option and that 90% number agrees with what I have come across it would appear that in spite of the extra cost the overwhelming majority of the buyers are opting for the PDK option, or at least cars outfitted with it.

Now most cars are configured by the dealer and of course the dealer's going to check off options that it thinks will help move the car and of course ones that can help the dealer recognize a profit so there is some bias cause most cars one encounters on a dealer's lot are going to have the PDK transmission.

My reading indicates other makers also see quite high numbers of automatic transmission sales. Automatics other than the old slush box kind. It appears that for a goodly number of cars/models the manu-matic transmission is displacing not only the slush box auto but the old fashioned manual shift tranmission as well.

It appears that the Turbo S with no 6-speed manual transmission option is targeted less now at the "enthusiast" driver (aka those that prefer rowing the gear shift about) and more at the well I don't know what to say except those that don't want to shift anymore. Or at least those that prefer to have an automatic shift option and then when the driver wants to switch to 'manual' mode in which the only shifting is done when the shift buttons/lever or paddles are manipulated.

Also, some areas of the country with high levels of traffic the manual is a liability in some respects. Almost every trip of any length that involves stop/go driving I cringe when the light changes and some butthead in I don't know what kind of sh*tbox almost runs up the back of my Turbo cause I do not choose to launch my Turbo away from the stoplight quick enough to suit the speed at which slush box equipped cars can leave a dead stop.

Many drivers too do not have the concept of engine braking and more than once I have lifted off the Turbo's gas pedal and after a bit looked up to see some following vehicle about to run into the back of the Turbo cause the only slowing the driver is used to is one that requires braking and brake lights. The driver in the car following mine assumes that with no brake lights showing on the car ahead -- in this case the Turbo -- there is no slowing and no reason to apply his vehicle's brakes.

Sincerely,

Macster.

fibredog

I too was presented the same option. Take a 2011 allocation on a standard Turbo or Turbo S. I ultimately chose the standard Turbo because I wanted a 6-speed again. This is my 3rd Turbo and I am primarily a weekend, country road, sunny day driver. For my needs the extra HP and faster times that the S provides, were not necessary. If I were to buy a Turbo for the track, I would seriously consider the PDK for attaining better times. After test driving the PDK, I was extremely impressed with the system. The paddles were fun to use and the overall performance was outstanding. In the end I came to the conclusion that a 6-speed, albeit archaic, was much more enjoyable for my type of use. I love technology and how things have progressed, but for me there is nothing like pairing a 500HP engine to a manual gearbox.

In regards to Porsche only offering PDK on the S for high-torque/reliability reasons, I think that it may be their feeling that a PDK being computer controlled gives them a controlled environment vs. a driver engaging gears manually. Just my guess.

Also, I don't see the 991 Turbo coming out until 2013. If they begin selling the base coupe in 2012, the cab will probably follow months later and then I would expect the Turbo and other variants a year after that.

jpcourt

If you want a manual wait!!!! I have a Turbo S with the PDK an I hate it!!!! I would love this car with a manual transmission... now it must go....(offers welcome)

FYI I have the PDK in my Panamera Turbo an love it... to me in a 911 it is not as good.(my opinion!)

malmasri

^off topic...what do you do with the GT3RS if you have a CaymanS labeled as a track car????and if you are not tracking it then why own it????

German_Saint

^^ I had a garage like that once on a racing game. Nice collection.

carcommander

Have you ever driven a Ferrari? My 360 was a 6 spd. My F430 is a F1. The F1 is vastly superior and a ball to drive. I like 6spd too, my turbo and now my RS is a 6spd. I grew up on them. But, I have to tell you that in some cars it's not the way to go. The RS is the best 6spd I have driven. The Ferrari 6spd sucks.

RSA333

The drivetrain with a manual transmission and the GT1 block can handle much more horsepower than the PDK with the less expensive engine. That is why most of the aftermarket folks are selling "reinforced" PDK transmissions as part of a power upgrade.

I suggest that you buy a manual Turbo now, unless you can afford and get your hands on a GT2RS.

The new 991 Turbo will have a version of the current 3.8L engine. But the "motor-sports" GTI block will remain for the 991 GT3/GT3RS models. At least that is the rumor from the factory.

indesj01

cant you just buy the 2011 Turbo with manuel and then get the power kit the S has?

TurboDoc

There is no "power kit" for the current generation turbo like the X50 for the 996 or X51 for the 997 Carrera that I am aware of. The extra horsepower on the Turbo S comes from ECU changes as well as a higher compression ratio and a new intake camshaft. Obviously, after market mods could get me well over 600 hp, however, the dealer will give me all sorts of trouble at repair time. They have refused coverage on a few small warranty items for my current daily driver C4S due to the EvoMS ECU and Fabspeed headers, exhaust and cats.

My basic complaint is that when faced with the option to build a new turbo just the way I want it I have to compromise and avoid the Turbo S to get a manual transmission. I acknowledge this is no big compromise and everyone says PDK is great so I am going to drive one tomorrow. However, when spending north of $150K I ought to be able to say I have a car just the way I want it without any compromises.

To those who wrote about Ferrari and Lambo transmissions which are abviously one option only; I respond that it is a completely different animal from a turbo despite being in the upper echelon of performance cars. A porsche turbo can be a daily driver and at the same time turn around and respond to the most aggressive of driving styles. Neither the F430 or any Lamborghini works for daily use. I personally think the F430 transmission is awful having driven it both around town and on the track, however, I understand the 458 F1 is much better.

What I have always loved about a Porsche Turbo is it can hang with the best of em yet still be used for track or daily driving. I suppose that the track and daily use both favor a PDK, but at 42 y.o. I am not ready to give up the old fashioned shifter.

Thanks to jpcourt who admitted he hates his PDK turbo S. I appreciate the honesty.

Macster

Your complaint I think is valid. You have the option -- one option -- to just not buy the Turbo. However, it appears that enough fans of the PDK are stepping up to take the place of those that must have a 6-speed.

While I have never driven either a Ferrari (rode in one once) or a Lambo I do like the fact that the Turbo is nearly their equal and is an every day driver. Plus I read reports of exotic car clubs (big in the UK) that have a very diversified stable of exotic (and not so exotic) cars, and the Porsches the word is are reliable, require minimal extra upkeep cost and are of course popular.

Be sure -- if you don't mind -- to post your impressions of the PDK. Also, if you haven't already thought of this, be sure to get the PDK the every day test drive scenarios. Making a K u-turn, creeping along at a low (near walking) speed in a parking lot, and so on.

Sincerely,

Macster.

TT Surgeon

Jp's garage is awesome, no doubt. The PDK is very fast on the track in the cars I've driven, esp in the sport plus mode. The power band is tight, lightning fast sifts, and all the rest. However, the emotion of the drive one gets with a 6 speed gt1 car is gone. I'll keep mine for some time.
Remember, when Porsche had to "get it done on the 'ring", they used the old reliable gt1 and g50 tranny combo in the gt2rs. A slap in the face to the df1/pdk, you decide?