Any reason to avoid 2011 TT?
10-14-2014, 09:55 PM
#32
Fwiw apparently the model T Ford, like the ,1tt was also a great car on it's day but even the die hard's for that car have managed to climb down off the rock. I guess when .1 starts falling to bits around some of these guys they may see things differently but again I say the best fix for the current stubbornness and delusion is to grab the keys to one of these newer cars for a day and then climb back into the .1 and try and kid yourselves it's even in the race.
So OP take that 2011 and don't look back. It was just the other day I spanked a highly tuned .1 in my stock 911tts. It was so devastating it was nearly as if the poor guy had no chance at all.
So OP take that 2011 and don't look back. It was just the other day I spanked a highly tuned .1 in my stock 911tts. It was so devastating it was nearly as if the poor guy had no chance at all.
10-14-2014, 11:37 PM
#33
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You guys are talking out of your *** about detuned etc. I know Magnus racing, they race everything that comes out new from Porsche. They don't run an engine because its this or that. They and most real race teams run "New" Engines from Porsche and they race Lemans and what not.. Not what was put out 5 years ago. A
Now I know they don't run turbos, but just making a point.
DFI in the racing world is superior as well. So is drive by wire and other technologies which increase, emissions, traction control, fuel control, knock control and more. PDK is also awesome and so is so many new technologies coming out are far superior to what was out 7 years ago..
Also I am seeing faster 997.2 cars than 997.1 cars with the same mods. 997.1 cars with a basic tune and exhaust make 30 whp less than a 997.2 on same boost and timing. Facts. Not wanna be fiction. Call any shop. Most of you guys garage these cars anyway, and even less go to the track.
Same month I bought mine, it went to the track. Just did Cobb, AMS IC's and AWE exhaust. Will make 600 wheel. Let me see a 997.1 do that. Already 100 wheel more than factory just with the ECU.
Now I know they don't run turbos, but just making a point.
DFI in the racing world is superior as well. So is drive by wire and other technologies which increase, emissions, traction control, fuel control, knock control and more. PDK is also awesome and so is so many new technologies coming out are far superior to what was out 7 years ago..
Also I am seeing faster 997.2 cars than 997.1 cars with the same mods. 997.1 cars with a basic tune and exhaust make 30 whp less than a 997.2 on same boost and timing. Facts. Not wanna be fiction. Call any shop. Most of you guys garage these cars anyway, and even less go to the track.
Same month I bought mine, it went to the track. Just did Cobb, AMS IC's and AWE exhaust. Will make 600 wheel. Let me see a 997.1 do that. Already 100 wheel more than factory just with the ECU.
The DFI is not used in motorsport, yet. Yes is it a great design and efficient but the fact is it not an engine to be tore down every 70 hours.
You just cannot go into a DFI and start modifiying stuff for racing like you can a Mezger.
Ask Magnus, they will tell you what you do not know about race motors.
10-14-2014, 11:47 PM
#34
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I look at it this way. The new DFI engine goes better, pulls better, revs out better, sounds better...end of story. How many would really give a F about mod potential on either engines when 99% will never get near that claimed mod potential anyway. Most stop at a tune and an exhaust, or tickle up the turbos and IC's etc.. Those very few that go beyond that, usually wind up with a shagged motor anyway and have to rebuild it at great expense. Then after it's finally put back together they are so worn out and just fed up with it no longer being usable like it was they wind up selling the f/ing thing. Just look at the history on these forums alone. Its a joke. All the money hosed is never recovered and, for what? To basically F up a perfectly good car to make it essentially useless and unsaleable. If what you have isnt quick enough just buy another one that is. A Porsche Turbo starts off as a sum of its parts, best to leave it like that imo.
10-14-2014, 11:52 PM
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PS. Forgot to add a DFI engine in general is far more costly to manufacture than a conventional EFI due to the requirement of more robust components, which kind of blows the argument that the engine is weaker and Porsche changed to the DFI to save money on production lol.
If the DFI is more costly to manufacture then they are selling them for too cheap over the counter....
The beauty of the DFI motor is how you can replace it cheaper then rebuilding a Mezger....
In talking with those who have built/tuned Mezgers and DFI's, they have said it all comes down to the electronics and cracking them the for an ultimate tune. Mezger has been tuner friendly for a whole host of reasons as well as limited tuneability of the DFI has a whole host of reasons too.
10-15-2014, 12:13 AM
#36
Not sure about the DFI turbo motors but the 3.8L crate DFIs are less then half price of the 3.8L GT3 Mezger crates from Porsche........
If the DFI is more costly to manufacture then they are selling them for too cheap over the counter....
The beauty of the DFI motor is how you can replace it cheaper then rebuilding a Mezger....
In talking with those who have built/tuned Mezgers and DFI's, they have said it all comes down to the electronics and cracking them the for an ultimate tune. Mezger has been tuner friendly for a whole host of reasons as well as limited tuneability of the DFI has a whole host of reasons too.
If the DFI is more costly to manufacture then they are selling them for too cheap over the counter....
The beauty of the DFI motor is how you can replace it cheaper then rebuilding a Mezger....
In talking with those who have built/tuned Mezgers and DFI's, they have said it all comes down to the electronics and cracking them the for an ultimate tune. Mezger has been tuner friendly for a whole host of reasons as well as limited tuneability of the DFI has a whole host of reasons too.
I can foresee the costs of providing mezger core parts increasing over time. There is always a high cost associated to producing low numbers to service a small segment of the market, and not because the items are superior in any way. There is no point producing high numbers to bring the costs down as the market wont absorb the product and will wind up as expensive scrap metal.
2) In that respect you are correct. I mean where you can fit a brand new engine for less dollars than screwing around reconditioning a tired corpse then that is always the better way to go for sure.
3) Seems CMS has had great success tuning the new DFI looking at their latest achievements. I'm sure it all comes down to will and way and the motivations to step outside of the comfort zone. In so far as the claim of their being a whole host of reasons inhibiting DFi's so called tunability I would need to hear those reasons to believe any of that. The DFI still has a block, two heads two cams a crank etc so what is exactly it that is so diabolically different that is limiting the "tuneability"?
4) Mezger has been out a long time so there are plenty of AM parts manufacturers competing for the biz....many options etc. Once that landscape changes i'm sure the same availability will exist for those wishing to create a dragster or track racer out of the DFI. But essentially all this is basically irrelevant for 99% of Porsche turbo owners who just want a car that is the sum of its parts out of the box and are prepared to leave it that way. And so long as it is faster than the usual competition there is no real motivation to fiddle with it. That was where the problem existed with .1. It was vulnerable against its competition very early in the piece, still is in tuned guise too. Race teams will always stay with what they know until they are forced to change. That situation will always continue.
Last edited by speed21; 10-15-2014 at 12:42 AM.
10-15-2014, 01:05 AM
#37
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1) I think it is just one of those cases of GT3 Porsche tax. Users pay a premium for the grand illusion. That is the parts and engine game in general. You have something that is seen in any way as being more exclusive and you will pay a premium regardless. So nothing odd with the pricing really when you put things into perspective. Needless to add in terms of manufacturing, the more of a particular product you can produce the more you are able to amortize the costs over the numbers. This applies to everything made really, regardless of what it is. I've seen all sorts of engine parts priced ridiculously higher than a current model higher tech component equivalent (light years ahead in design), purely due to the exclusivity or, limited manufacture of the item in question. It goes with the territory.
I can foresee the costs of providing mezger core parts increasing over time. There is always a high cost associated to producing low numbers to service a small segment of the market, and not because the items are superior in any way. There is no point producing high numbers to bring the costs down as the market wont absorb the product and will wind up as expensive scrap metal.
2) In that respect you are correct. I mean where you can fit a brand new engine for less dollars than screwing around reconditioning a tired corpse then that is always the better way to go for sure.
3) Seems CMS has had great success tuning the new DFI looking at their latest achievements. I'm sure it all comes down to will and way and the motivations to step outside of the comfort zone. In so far as the claim of their being a whole host of reasons inhibiting DFi's so called tunability I would need to hear those reasons to believe any of that. The DFI still has a block, two heads two cams a crank etc so what is exactly it that is so diabolically different that is limiting the "tuneability"?
4) Mezger has been out a long time so there are plenty of AM parts manufacturers competing for the biz....many options etc. Once that landscape changes i'm sure the same availability will exist for those wishing to create a dragster or track racer out of the DFI. But essentially all this is basically irrelevant for 99% of Porsche turbo owners who just want a car that is the sum of its parts out of the box and are prepared to leave it that way. And so long as it is faster than the usual competition there is no real motivation to fiddle with it. That was where the problem existed with .1. It was vulnerable against its competition very early in the piece, still is in tuned guise too. Race teams will always stay with what they know until they are forced to change. That situation will always continue.
I can foresee the costs of providing mezger core parts increasing over time. There is always a high cost associated to producing low numbers to service a small segment of the market, and not because the items are superior in any way. There is no point producing high numbers to bring the costs down as the market wont absorb the product and will wind up as expensive scrap metal.
2) In that respect you are correct. I mean where you can fit a brand new engine for less dollars than screwing around reconditioning a tired corpse then that is always the better way to go for sure.
3) Seems CMS has had great success tuning the new DFI looking at their latest achievements. I'm sure it all comes down to will and way and the motivations to step outside of the comfort zone. In so far as the claim of their being a whole host of reasons inhibiting DFi's so called tunability I would need to hear those reasons to believe any of that. The DFI still has a block, two heads two cams a crank etc so what is exactly it that is so diabolically different that is limiting the "tuneability"?
4) Mezger has been out a long time so there are plenty of AM parts manufacturers competing for the biz....many options etc. Once that landscape changes i'm sure the same availability will exist for those wishing to create a dragster or track racer out of the DFI. But essentially all this is basically irrelevant for 99% of Porsche turbo owners who just want a car that is the sum of its parts out of the box and are prepared to leave it that way. And so long as it is faster than the usual competition there is no real motivation to fiddle with it. That was where the problem existed with .1. It was vulnerable against its competition very early in the piece, still is in tuned guise too. Race teams will always stay with what they know until they are forced to change. That situation will always continue.
What is interesting is I had this discussion with a builder from Champion while at Sebring earlier this year. I asked the same questions about Mezger turbo tuning to DFI engine tuning as we were discussing what is the best turbo value today and I was also interested in discussing their DFI Turbo street RSR build.
Basically he said that everybody has had a steep learning curve tuning the DFI hitting many walls but progress is being made. He said without question the Mezger can be taken apart and built and tuned to be a killer motor because it is 100% tune friendly/rebuildable wheras the DFI has its limitations due to emissions controls and computer etc.
He said in order to put the DFI into racing Porsche will need to futher develop the engine specifically for racing. It is not that the teams want to stick with what they know, they want what works and can be be worked with to win. They are still waiting for the DFI to be racer friendly.
10-15-2014, 03:10 AM
#38
Ask them why the Mezger is still used today in the Cup cars....... It is a proven design that is tunable and rebuildable. Considering teams tear them down every 70 hours or so....
The DFI is not used in motorsport, yet. Yes is it a great design and efficient but the fact is it not an engine to be tore down every 70 hours.
You just cannot go into a DFI and start modifiying stuff for racing like you can a Mezger.
Ask Magnus, they will tell you what you do not know about race motors.
The DFI is not used in motorsport, yet. Yes is it a great design and efficient but the fact is it not an engine to be tore down every 70 hours.
You just cannot go into a DFI and start modifiying stuff for racing like you can a Mezger.
Ask Magnus, they will tell you what you do not know about race motors.
There is no argument that motor racing teams have acquired a degree of experience building the Mezger engine and are sufficiently comfortable with their present outcomes/requirements and, if they can beat the competition using Mezger then why change? After-all change requires an investment in time and money and who wants to do that if they dont have to? So I would agree motivation currently appears weak in dropping Mezger amongst the racing circle. BUT things may well change with 991GT3 now running DFI. Let's see eh?
Porsche appear to be more interested pursuing hybrid power for their racing agenda and I imagine experience and knowledge gained will be borne out into future production models. So it could well be the case Mezger inherits the name as being the last of the non hybrid race engine'st by default of the fact there is no future for non hybrid race engines...who knows. That said, it doesn't mean that the newer DFI engine hasn't far better potential than mezger in making more power per cc. The DFI combustion technology is after-all used in F1 I believe. And, Porsche is evidently continually producing a much better car with the new DFI engine than ever before. So, natural progression is being made with the new engines from within anyway even if not at a rate some here would expect, or seen in the racing circle.
But back to topic, 2011 or .1tt,
.... race cars and racing agendas becomes not so relevant for the buyer of a street turbo.
According to Porsche Cup teams the engines are so expensive due to parts used in them as opposed to an illusion created by the name. That being said they are indeed in low production numbers and will command more of a premium in parts based not only in materials but in quanities.
What is interesting is I had this discussion with a builder from Champion while at Sebring earlier this year. I asked the same questions about Mezger turbo tuning to DFI engine tuning as we were discussing what is the best turbo value today and I was also interested in discussing their DFI Turbo street RSR build.
Basically he said that everybody has had a steep learning curve tuning the DFI hitting many walls but progress is being made. He said without question the Mezger can be taken apart and built and tuned to be a killer motor because it is 100% tune friendly/rebuildable wheras the DFI has its limitations due to emissions controls and computer etc.
He said in order to put the DFI into racing Porsche will need to futher develop the engine specifically for racing. It is not that the teams want to stick with what they know, they want what works and can be be worked with to win. They are still waiting for the DFI to be racer friendly.
What is interesting is I had this discussion with a builder from Champion while at Sebring earlier this year. I asked the same questions about Mezger turbo tuning to DFI engine tuning as we were discussing what is the best turbo value today and I was also interested in discussing their DFI Turbo street RSR build.
Basically he said that everybody has had a steep learning curve tuning the DFI hitting many walls but progress is being made. He said without question the Mezger can be taken apart and built and tuned to be a killer motor because it is 100% tune friendly/rebuildable wheras the DFI has its limitations due to emissions controls and computer etc.
He said in order to put the DFI into racing Porsche will need to futher develop the engine specifically for racing. It is not that the teams want to stick with what they know, they want what works and can be be worked with to win. They are still waiting for the DFI to be racer friendly.
Last edited by speed21; 10-15-2014 at 03:27 AM.
10-15-2014, 08:59 AM
#40
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It is no secret PMNA provides sealed motors to Cup teams. As I stated they can rebuild these motors over and over again. Again, ask Magnus why Porsche is not currently using the DFI in their Cup car program and you will learn why the Mezger design is better then you think, (for racing application anyways..)
10-15-2014, 09:50 AM
#41
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I generally agree with what you have said with exception to the DFI not being rebuildable. If parts are available any engine is rebuildable unless of course the cost of the parts and labor outweigh the exercise, or, if the spec of the parts required to up the power to the desired level are not (yet) readily available, or, at a similar price point as mezger's engine component offerings. In so far as DFI, it's all about investing time and money really and being sufficiently motivated to do so. Then of course there is the availability and spread of the uprated components for the DFI (which of course Mezger already has available).
Sorry if I have been misleading on that.
Cup teams are indeed ready for another engine as they have squeezed as much as they can out of the Mezger. Unfortunately Porsche could not use the new DFI motor for their racing applications (yet). They are most certainly not still using the Mezger because it is what they know and are comfortable with.... They are obviously trying to develop another motor for racing. I suspect ECU and computer will be the biggest development to a DFI race motor as well as cost effective rebuild proceedures and schedules. (unless they go with full replacments! lol)
Porsche has decided to continue running the Mezger in their race cars for now but for their street cars they needed to meet stricter emissions and fuel consumption regulations therefore they have developed DFI motors which are modern and efficent.
Basically, it appears a Mezger motor is the last of the 911 motors that can be tore down and hot rodded with pistons, cams, intake etc which makes the 997.1TT attractive to certain buyers. But obviously not everbody is doing that therefore the efficient and more powerful 997.2TT is attractive to other buyers.
Price point currently between the two models is more due to the age vs. engine.
I do not see the Mezger TT surpasing resale of the DFI TT anytime soon or in the future.
Both models are the last of the 6 speed manual turbo and to the OP there is no reason to avoid a 997.2TT.
10-15-2014, 11:33 AM
#42
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Hey OP, have they answered your question yet. 
10-15-2014, 12:17 PM
#43
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Here you go guys, straight from the horses mouth. Real testing on internal components .1 VS .2. Turbo. Read the below and you be the judge:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...knowledge.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...knowledge.html
10-15-2014, 12:40 PM
#44
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and the fuel pump issue on the DFI motor.. http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...-research.html
Great motor? yes, tuner friendly? no, nor there will never be one as tuner friendly as the .1
Great motor? yes, tuner friendly? no, nor there will never be one as tuner friendly as the .1
10-15-2014, 02:14 PM
#45
Here you go guys, straight from the horses mouth. Real testing on internal components .1 VS .2. Turbo. Read the below and you be the judge:
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...knowledge.html
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/9...knowledge.html