How NOT to Run an Autocross Event!!
11-25-2011, 10:51 PM
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How NOT to Run an Autocross Event!!
Corner workers in the middle of the course, some of them even squatting instead of standing, people walking around casually, light poles without any markings (let alone protective padding), and a foot-high curb at the edge of the course mere 30 ft from a fast section. What could go wrong?
http://www.onehotlap.com/2011/11/how...oss-event.html
http://www.onehotlap.com/2011/11/how...oss-event.html
11-28-2011, 04:31 PM
#2
Pretty standard procedure
Not kosher - workers must be standing when cars are on course.
Hard to tell from the camera angle if they are on the course or not
I've never seen light poles marked or padded in any way at an autox - the general rule is to just keep the course far enough away that they don't come into play. SCCA rules say a minimum of 25', 50' if there are karts, but again these are minimums. Obviously some areas are safer, and allow objects right up to the 50' limit (such as the insides of sweepers), but other areas (such as the end of a straight) would necessitate more than 50'.
This is the problem child - if it is in fact 30', it would meet the non-kart SCCA rules (granted this is not an SCCA event, but their rules are the ones I'm familiar with), but is still much too close for comfort. Especially in a high-speed slalom (slaloms cause a lot of spins, and high speeds just means you're gonna slide further when you loose it).
some of them even squatting instead of standing
people walking around casually
light poles without any markings (let alone protective padding)
and a foot-high curb at the edge of the course mere 30 ft from a fast section
11-28-2011, 05:47 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Did anyone else notice how far the drivers head went back and to the right during the impact? I hope he is OK.
Although the point of the video is pointing out how the course was managed - the fact of the matter is the driver is ultimately responsible for choosing to run or not to run based on their own judgement of the track, the conditions and layout.
Although one could nitpick about course distance to the wall and the crouching person (not clear they are working) that did not cause the accident - the driver did. I will agree that the course proximity to the wall did increase the danger and potential damage to the cars.
I think this video should be used as an example that as a driver you have the responsibility to determine the course's safety. If you are unsure, you should say something or not run.
Although the point of the video is pointing out how the course was managed - the fact of the matter is the driver is ultimately responsible for choosing to run or not to run based on their own judgement of the track, the conditions and layout.
Although one could nitpick about course distance to the wall and the crouching person (not clear they are working) that did not cause the accident - the driver did. I will agree that the course proximity to the wall did increase the danger and potential damage to the cars.
I think this video should be used as an example that as a driver you have the responsibility to determine the course's safety. If you are unsure, you should say something or not run.
11-29-2011, 02:47 PM
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Pretty standard procedure
Not kosher - workers must be standing when cars are on course.
Hard to tell from the camera angle if they are on the course or not
I've never seen light poles marked or padded in any way at an autox - the general rule is to just keep the course far enough away that they don't come into play. SCCA rules say a minimum of 25', 50' if there are karts, but again these are minimums. Obviously some areas are safer, and allow objects right up to the 50' limit (such as the insides of sweepers), but other areas (such as the end of a straight) would necessitate more than 50'.
This is the problem child - if it is in fact 30', it would meet the non-kart SCCA rules (granted this is not an SCCA event, but their rules are the ones I'm familiar with), but is still much too close for comfort. Especially in a high-speed slalom (slaloms cause a lot of spins, and high speeds just means you're gonna slide further when you loose it).
Not kosher - workers must be standing when cars are on course.
Hard to tell from the camera angle if they are on the course or not
I've never seen light poles marked or padded in any way at an autox - the general rule is to just keep the course far enough away that they don't come into play. SCCA rules say a minimum of 25', 50' if there are karts, but again these are minimums. Obviously some areas are safer, and allow objects right up to the 50' limit (such as the insides of sweepers), but other areas (such as the end of a straight) would necessitate more than 50'.
This is the problem child - if it is in fact 30', it would meet the non-kart SCCA rules (granted this is not an SCCA event, but their rules are the ones I'm familiar with), but is still much too close for comfort. Especially in a high-speed slalom (slaloms cause a lot of spins, and high speeds just means you're gonna slide further when you loose it).
The person crouching at 0:30 is in the spin zone. Working on not, it's another disaster waiting to happen.
I think our clubs (Boston area) have been very fortunate. Our site (Fort Devens) is an old airstrip, which is wide open and very safe. Here's what it looks like in our course designer's 911 GT3 RS: http://www.onehotlap.com/2011/10/200...autocross.html
Last edited by brave1heart; 11-29-2011 at 06:13 PM.
12-08-2011, 02:09 PM
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Many clubs do not have large open lots available to work with. Organizers should do their best to make things safe, but ultimately its the drivers responsibility to not drive, or dial things back in the dangerous areas. That being said, just looking at the camera angle it did seem like there was no need to have the slalom so close to the wall.
01-24-2012, 06:31 PM
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It's really interesting to see the reaction to the accident from various autocrossers. In many parts of the country, parking lots like the one form this video are the norm and their safety standards are much lower, as well as drivers' perception of what's acceptable and where the responsibilities lie with the organizers and the drivers. There is no substitute for common sense. As a driver, i would hate to be on the receiving end of this disaster. As an autocross organizer, I would hate just as much for something like this to happen at an event I put together...
01-27-2012, 10:23 AM
#7
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Not sure I agree so much with "drivers responsibility to run or not". Novice drivers may or may not know any better. The driver of that car could have been a gifted novice making rapid improvements during the day with the instructor helping them. The driver may have been going closer and closer to the limit, but not have experience about where the limit is, and certainly no experience about what to do once past the limit.
I put a lot of thought into where a car may spin and give them the space to do so if I think it will happen. (insert evil grin here) and sometimes there may be an element placed to make a greedy driver loose it.
I put a lot of thought into where a car may spin and give them the space to do so if I think it will happen. (insert evil grin here) and sometimes there may be an element placed to make a greedy driver loose it.
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02-07-2012, 08:34 PM
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Not sure I agree so much with "drivers responsibility to run or not". Novice drivers may or may not know any better. The driver of that car could have been a gifted novice making rapid improvements during the day with the instructor helping them. The driver may have been going closer and closer to the limit, but not have experience about where the limit is, and certainly no experience about what to do once past the limit.
I put a lot of thought into where a car may spin and give them the space to do so if I think it will happen. (insert evil grin here) and sometimes there may be an element placed to make a greedy driver loose it.
I put a lot of thought into where a car may spin and give them the space to do so if I think it will happen. (insert evil grin here) and sometimes there may be an element placed to make a greedy driver loose it.
02-07-2012, 10:10 PM
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I can't imagine anyone would pay for the event, get up early for it, show up at 7 am, go to the driver's meeting, walk the course and then go "Course is too dangerous for me, I'm going home". As an event organizer, I wouldn't feel comfortable offering an event that may not be safe. I'd rather have a very boring course that keeps everyone out of trouble than an exciting one that creates a potential for someone to get hurt...
02-08-2012, 07:10 AM
#10
Drifting
If ANY driver has a legit safety concern, it's their responsibility to bring it to the safety steward, and it's the responsibility of the safety steward to correct it. The safety steward may miss stuff, but they're generally not the type to gloss over safety concerns when they're brought up. It stops being fun REAL fast when cars get broken or someone gets hurt.
And yes, that may mean really short confusing slow-speed courses with no more than 1 car at a time at some venues. They can't all be lincoln!
And yes, that may mean really short confusing slow-speed courses with no more than 1 car at a time at some venues. They can't all be lincoln!
02-11-2012, 10:10 AM
#11
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^^^^^^
I address any and all safety issues that are pointed out to me. Sometimes you miss a crack in the pavement that would be on the loaded side of the car. Does not happen very often though. There are 3 of us setting up for BMW (Brave1heart in co chair) And the extra eyes catch these things on the fly. I always do a complete course design before the event. I use Autocad and have a fairly accurate layout of Devens that I made using a surveyor wheel and Google earth. My map has most of the painted runway lines on it, landmarks, and of course sewers and pavement defects. I layout the course in feet at my desk, tweak it around for a few days, and finish it. I print out 2 types of maps. The maps I use have all of the defects and runway lines on it, landmarks also. Dimensions on my map are in paces, between cones and often cone to landmark. I layout the course almost as fast as I can walk. Other 2 design team members follow doing a bit of nip and tuck, as well as placing corner stations and setting up the stop area. I also print out a few maps for the drivers, those only have the cones and runway outline on them. Once in a while I print out a full 36 x 48 map that goes on the side of my trailer.
Doing all of this in advance helps me control the speed at parts of the course where I do not want them to go off the runway. We do have some areas where the John Deere experience is fairly safe. Not so good tarmac covered with weeds and "marbles". We also have some areas where we really do not want any drama because the runoff is softer soil.
I address any and all safety issues that are pointed out to me. Sometimes you miss a crack in the pavement that would be on the loaded side of the car. Does not happen very often though. There are 3 of us setting up for BMW (Brave1heart in co chair) And the extra eyes catch these things on the fly. I always do a complete course design before the event. I use Autocad and have a fairly accurate layout of Devens that I made using a surveyor wheel and Google earth. My map has most of the painted runway lines on it, landmarks, and of course sewers and pavement defects. I layout the course in feet at my desk, tweak it around for a few days, and finish it. I print out 2 types of maps. The maps I use have all of the defects and runway lines on it, landmarks also. Dimensions on my map are in paces, between cones and often cone to landmark. I layout the course almost as fast as I can walk. Other 2 design team members follow doing a bit of nip and tuck, as well as placing corner stations and setting up the stop area. I also print out a few maps for the drivers, those only have the cones and runway outline on them. Once in a while I print out a full 36 x 48 map that goes on the side of my trailer.
Doing all of this in advance helps me control the speed at parts of the course where I do not want them to go off the runway. We do have some areas where the John Deere experience is fairly safe. Not so good tarmac covered with weeds and "marbles". We also have some areas where we really do not want any drama because the runoff is softer soil.
02-12-2012, 05:08 PM
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^^^^^^
I address any and all safety issues that are pointed out to me. Sometimes you miss a crack in the pavement that would be on the loaded side of the car. Does not happen very often though. There are 3 of us setting up for BMW (Brave1heart in co chair) And the extra eyes catch these things on the fly. I always do a complete course design before the event. I use Autocad and have a fairly accurate layout of Devens that I made using a surveyor wheel and Google earth. My map has most of the painted runway lines on it, landmarks, and of course sewers and pavement defects. I layout the course in feet at my desk, tweak it around for a few days, and finish it. I print out 2 types of maps. The maps I use have all of the defects and runway lines on it, landmarks also. Dimensions on my map are in paces, between cones and often cone to landmark. I layout the course almost as fast as I can walk. Other 2 design team members follow doing a bit of nip and tuck, as well as placing corner stations and setting up the stop area. I also print out a few maps for the drivers, those only have the cones and runway outline on them. Once in a while I print out a full 36 x 48 map that goes on the side of my trailer.
Doing all of this in advance helps me control the speed at parts of the course where I do not want them to go off the runway. We do have some areas where the John Deere experience is fairly safe. Not so good tarmac covered with weeds and "marbles". We also have some areas where we really do not want any drama because the runoff is softer soil.
I address any and all safety issues that are pointed out to me. Sometimes you miss a crack in the pavement that would be on the loaded side of the car. Does not happen very often though. There are 3 of us setting up for BMW (Brave1heart in co chair) And the extra eyes catch these things on the fly. I always do a complete course design before the event. I use Autocad and have a fairly accurate layout of Devens that I made using a surveyor wheel and Google earth. My map has most of the painted runway lines on it, landmarks, and of course sewers and pavement defects. I layout the course in feet at my desk, tweak it around for a few days, and finish it. I print out 2 types of maps. The maps I use have all of the defects and runway lines on it, landmarks also. Dimensions on my map are in paces, between cones and often cone to landmark. I layout the course almost as fast as I can walk. Other 2 design team members follow doing a bit of nip and tuck, as well as placing corner stations and setting up the stop area. I also print out a few maps for the drivers, those only have the cones and runway outline on them. Once in a while I print out a full 36 x 48 map that goes on the side of my trailer.
Doing all of this in advance helps me control the speed at parts of the course where I do not want them to go off the runway. We do have some areas where the John Deere experience is fairly safe. Not so good tarmac covered with weeds and "marbles". We also have some areas where we really do not want any drama because the runoff is softer soil.
02-14-2012, 04:57 PM
#13
The course was actually fairly well laid out considering the space constraints. The driver hit the gas way too hard, waited to long to lift, and never hit his brakes. He froze. Very unfortunate, but I would not say it was an example "of how Not to run an event".
02-20-2012, 02:26 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I've been putting together autox events for about 10 years, in 5 different venues... no matter how safely you think you've setup the course, someone can always find a way to crash into something.
I've found in the past that the biggest problems are when you setup the course with a 'slowish' car, and then you have a 400+hp vette come out and find a whole bunch of trouble spots that you never knew existed.
But I do encourage ALL drivers at the drivers meeting to raise ANY safety concerns immediately without any hesitation. If you are approachable, people won't have any trouble doing so.
Corner workers are stationed in areas of the course away from any likely trajectory of a sliding car on course. Sometimes the safest spot IS in the middle of the course. Quite often, after 1 or 2 runs, we will adjust the worker stations to put them in an even safer spot, if required.
I've found in the past that the biggest problems are when you setup the course with a 'slowish' car, and then you have a 400+hp vette come out and find a whole bunch of trouble spots that you never knew existed.
But I do encourage ALL drivers at the drivers meeting to raise ANY safety concerns immediately without any hesitation. If you are approachable, people won't have any trouble doing so.
Corner workers are stationed in areas of the course away from any likely trajectory of a sliding car on course. Sometimes the safest spot IS in the middle of the course. Quite often, after 1 or 2 runs, we will adjust the worker stations to put them in an even safer spot, if required.
06-11-2012, 01:14 PM
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Driver's meeting in all my experience is BEFORE course walk. How would anyone know if the course is safe at that point, let alone if their corner station is located at a safe spot?! There are newbies at every event, how can they be expected to know what's safe and reasonable?! It's part of the organizers' responsibilities to oversee the safety of the event.