User 52121

Do any of you belong to a region that uses car classification rules that are vastly different from those of the national Parade rules? If so - care to share what they are?

In the Chicago region we've held pretty strongly to Parade rules and classes. Problem is - this works for Parade, which has lots of participants and a wide variety of cars. It doesn't work so well for our region, which usually has 25 participants on average (the most we've had in my time as a member was close to 40), and easily 95% of those participants are in Boxsters and 996's. We wind up with 2 classes with 8-10 people in it, and then 5-6 straggler classes with only 1-2 participants. IMO that takes away from those who win in the bigger classes (as they had to beat 8 others) and gives wins to folks who are only racing against one other person. (We do "roll up" results in classes that have 2 or less in it - but then sometimes it winds up sucking anyways when you've got a poor guy in a 1.7L 914 "rolled up" into the class with Boxsters....)

We're trying to figure out a way to break it up a bit, even the classes out while making the field more competitive for everybody. Enough people complained to our AX coordinator and board of directors that I think we might have some momentum to get the board to sign off on finally deviating from Parade rules.

The obvious choice would be to break things up by power-to-weight... but then for the handful of folks that have modified their cars, we'd be on the honor system to ensure that they are reporting their power accurately. It also doesn't really account for suspension changes, which IMO help more than power does when it comes to AX.

Other clubs (Chicago Audi, Chicago VW, and Chicago BMW) seem to do a "points" system based on modifications, where certain models start off with a certain number of points, and then you add/subtract based on engine size, suspension mods, etc. Your class is then determined based on the number of points you tally up. I like this method but it will be tough to come up with a "fair" points system. It, too, also relies on the honor system.

We don't take our AX too seriously, it's more about fun for the participants and it'd be nice to give more folks a fair shot at taking home a trophy. AX in the Chicago region tends to be used more as a "gateway drug" so to speak for getting folks to move into DE so we'd prefer that folks come away having had fun rather than feeling frustrated.

So how do you do it in your region?

BGLeduc

There are some compressed class structure suggestions in the Parade Rules. Of course, consolidating classes creates some pretty big inequities that some may not like. The bottom line though is that there really is no solution that is fair and equitable to all when only 30 cars show up (that is typical for us as well). Someone will always get the short end of the stick.

We actually do use the medium sized region classing suggestions from the PCR's for our big multi-region event. That did reduce the 1 car classes significantly, but not entirely.

What would be useful would be if there were a PAX system based on the class structure in the PCR's, but even that would have it's pitfalls were it to exist.

IMHO, putting together a classing system that is fair to all is the Kobyashi Maru of our sport. :-)

Brian

Jim Michaels

Shenandoah region uses one of the PCA compressed classes systems. They use 7 Porsche classes, a Ladies class, and an Other class.

http://shn.pca.org/autox.php

I think they usually have between 20 and 30 participants, so I don't think a class win means as much to most of them as their overall position compared to how they did at the previous events. For a while some of the relatively new-to-AX Porsche drivers didn't like getting beat by Miatas and Mini Coopers, but they're probably used to that by now.

HarryD

Oregon PCA uses a compressed class system.

We typically have about 55-70 entrants and up to 40% will be non P-cars.

You can see it here: http://www.oregonpca.org/events/auto...s-regulations/

Earlydays

If the cars are stock, you could use the SCCA PAX numbers as a start.

User 52121

Thanks for all the suggestions guys - I will check out those links!

Jim Michaels

Actually, one could use the SCCA PAX numbers for the non-stock cars too, but it might take more than the usual amount of time and effort. The hard part would be identifying which class (of many) each car (as configured) would be in according to SCCA classifications. The easy part would be assigning the cars the PAX numbers that are associated with each car's respective SCCA class. Note that this would result in one huge class, and one winner; whoever takes FTD.

chuck911

Surprised nobody from PNWR has chimed in. So let me. PNWR autox regularly turns out 100+ cars, so much bigger you might be inclined to say "that won't work for us" then again maybe we have big turnout because of the rules.... over time anyway... solved some of these problems.
This is abbreviated not exact but basically classes are broken down two ways: first by model, then by mods. Models are grouped together based on performance. To be in Stock the car must be stock. Steering wheel, seats, brand of tire. That's about it. Factory performance options are all okay. Anything- any ONE THING- changed moves the car up to Prepared. Prepared cars may run R-compound tires, aftermarket springs, roll bars, header- very long list basically anything you could bolt on in your garage. Beyond that, Modified cars may have a long list of engine mods.

While it may seem odd for a guy who just mounted R-compound tires to have to run against cars with completely reworked suspension and exhaust, it does at least place a limit on Prepared- and this has worked great in our Region for a very long time.

With only 25 cars turning out you might want to consider something more creative, such as running classes based on actual performance. Take the car out of the equation. Just a thought, but if you say took an average of all prior years runs and divided those up into roughly equal run groups- top 5 Group A, next 5 Group B and so on. Similar to divisions in other sports (cycling, racquetball) where groups are based on ability. Nobody cares how spendy your bicycle is, you need race wins to move up. Same concept here. Anyone who has done autox very much is familiar with the situation where a good driver in Stock is killing the times of some gus with much "faster" cars. This just recognizes that reality, helps balance out the run groups, and helps put the emphasis back where it probably should be anyway, on driver skill.

sjfehr

Do you allow non-OEM street tires in stock class? Like Hankook RS3, Dunlop Star Spec, etc?

User 52121

Yes we do. The only tire restriction we have is we give a 2.5% penalty for those with tires that have a treadwear rating under 140 for all classes that aren't "M".

"M" class is our "catch all" or "anything goes" class. The guys that show up with Hoosiers on an otherwise stock car (so far only one of them in the last 3 years) has to choose whether to take the time penalty and run with the other stockish cars, or run in M against the 2-3 ringers we have in the club (one of them driving an original '72 911 S-T....)

porrsha

One of the problems we have run into is that the preloaded software in AXWARE, the autocross software from Autin Tx, has SCCA and Corvette club classes already programmed in. Our turnout has always been somewhere around 20 cars + or - 5 to 10. We have always run SCCA classes because the PAX index allows us to then fairly gauge between the 996 Turbo and the 944 N/A that show up.

This year I am getting "beat up" to go to Parade classes or the medium parade rules. That does not sound like a solution that is going to solve any problems.

1gplus

Hi Porrsha, Sorry you are gettin' "beat up" but it's not coming from me. I have class definition files for AXWare that match the PCR car classing for the full parade classes as well as for the medium sized event classes defined in section A-9.2 of the PCRs. In fact, the medium class definition file also included PAX-like index numbers to scale any Porsche to any other Porsche at the event. These PAX numbers were developed by my home region over the last few years of our autox events. I can send you the class definition files directly if you want.

That being said, you might consider using the small event classing definition in section A-9.1 of the PCRs since you are only getting roughly 20 Porsches at your autox events. I could build an AXWare class definition file to match the small event car classes if that would help you out. Just let me know.

Of course, you are free to use any car classing scheme you like for your region. I'm just trying to help.

Cheers,
Henry
PCA National Autox Chair

kpl

Here's is GGR's system. Works fairly well, though it's a bit odd to say have my car in stock trim on streets vs. an early modded car on slicks in the same class. No system is perfect

racer

Sounds like to me you have a demographics issue. Maybe you need to encourage more folks with the older cars to come out. Having mostly Boxsters and 996's doesn't suprise me though.

Surely there are 914s, 356's, 944s etc out there that should be coming out to events. Were they running there 5 years ago? 10 years ago?

PCA Potomac gets about 50-60 cars, about 10-15 of which are non-porsches. We use the small or medium PCA classes and find they work ok, but as mentioned, some classes become "catch alls" making it harder for some of the older cars to compete for class wins.

Why not just let folks enjoy their class wins? Or, are you looking for a paxed system so the 996 driver can learn he was actually slower than the 914 2.0 driver was

Also it seems to me that, assuming a fair and equitable course design, the top times from each class are fairly close regardless of car type and class, meaning its the driver and not the car that matters.

johnclay

Numbers have been dropping on the 914, 911, 944. A handful of regulars have moved to newer 996/997/boxster models as the prices came down to reasonable levels. PCA Potomac adjusted for the typical field by using a hybrid method: medium size classing for the stock categories and small size classing for prepared and modified. Biggest issue is a large disparity in performance ability for the cars in the "slowest" of the prepared classes.