Yellowing Carbon Fiber

[Alexander Stemer]

In all these 10 pages of chat, has anybody considered that carbon fiber is a truely stupid material for a STREET car? AS

[themarsman]

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer

In all these 10 pages of chat, has anybody considered that carbon fiber is a truely stupid material for a STREET car? AS

Not even once! Because it might turn yellowish, that makes it a stupid material? Maybe steel shouldn't be used in cars because it rusts, or alluminum because it oxidises. I believe carbon fiber to be a fantastic material that works quite well on street cars, I have several cars that have many parts made from carbon fiber and haven't had any problems at all. I will bet you that you start seeing carbon fiber parts on virtually all cars in the next 10 years.

[themarsman]

Originally Posted by VRAlexander

Well I still have not heard anything from Porsche.... The CGT is on the showroom floor at Exotic Cars at Ceasars Palace...I spent the last couple of days specing out my new toy...let me know what you guys think...they where able to e-mail me photos of what she will look like:





Then some straight pipes, clear bra and an ECU tune before getting her home

I think you might want to drive the car for a little bit before making ECU and exhaust mods. I really like your color combination! It is a lot nicer than one I saw recently at a car show!

Here is a pic of the horrible color!

Good Luck with the new car!

[icon]

porsche may not be able to get the cf even if they wanted.
also unless their supplier covered the cost they would be paying quadruple the price.
hard to see a supplier playing nice when supply is that far behind demand.
especially when you're talkin' exotic high end car industry vs. airplane mfgr's . . . i wonder who's gonna have the more pull?

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ers-usat_N.htm

[Alexander Stemer]

Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS

[carreragt558]

For all you guys who are encountering this issue,PM me.
I'll be more than happy to give you the e-address of the person in charge of this problem.
Please be gentle enough to send inquiries regarding this and only this issue.
For those who do not know,Mr Dieter Steinhauser has a long experience in the porsche motorsport department and therefore racing cars which you know are almost only made of carbon.
He is also in charge of the RS spyder program.So be kind enough to let him a couple of days to answer you.Mr Durheimer has personally charged him of this difficult problem.
These two people will do their best and more to help you out.The problem here is the supplier and not Porsche.Porsche is responsible for everything relating its cars but doesn't want to get screwed by the supplier and therefore tries to put pressure on it .You know that Porsche is the most profitable car company.I think that explains a lot concerning their warranty policies...
saying that, I wish you good luck with that dramatic problem.

[themarsman]

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer

Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS

I disagree with a bunch of your points, I could state that:
1. Have you seen pictures of the McLaren F1 crash test? This car held up better than any other car I have ever seen, it didn't shatter. I have seen plenty of Carbon Fiber cars in accidents on the internet and I can't say any of them shattered. In my opinion they hold up to a crash better than any other material I have seen.
2. I have been driving for 25 years and have never been in an accident, if it happens insurance will cover the expense. Do you go through your entire life worrying about the worst case scenarios?
3. Same as 2, but I know plenty of people that can not only repair carbon fiber, but can also create new parts.
4. I have looked at reality, can you? There is a shortage of carbon fiber because it is in high demand. Do you think the trend of all of the supercars is a coincidence? Do you think the engineers are all idiots?
5. The weight savings is pretty obvious, sure the corvette is also pretty light, but it has a titanium exhaust, thin glass, less rigid, not nearly as solid, etc... Also refer to #4, the engineers use the material for a reason.
6. Carbon fiber has been used for many years and its limitations are well knows.

I own and drive the greatest car ever made and you can worry about 120K damage to your car. Do you not have insurance? I worry I won't live long enough to finally be able to drive my car at 9 / 10ths of potential.

So in summary I think you spend way too much time worrying about the what if's and should spend more time enjoying life. IMHO

[Pugnacious P]

I believe msrp was 1.7m but they were trading a bit higher.

However, as the old adage goes: If you have to ask....

[pcar964]

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer

Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS

I agree with you - 15 years from now, would you trust one of these CF chassis? Not sure I would. CF is used in racecars because of its light weight and strength, but racecar designers don't have to worry about longevity - with the degradation of the resins, and the tendency for CF parts to fail catastrophically (when they do fail), that's an untenable compromise for a street car, imho.

I would point to the F50 as an example, with the "expected service life" of the CF tub...

[Alexander Stemer]

Mars,
I'm not sure any of your responsese are relevant to my points.
1. An F1 car is not a street car. Low weight, center of gravity, etc are critical on a race car, and much less so on a street car. For F1 it is essential, for the street (or amateur track) it is a stupid waste of money. Of course, all are free to spend their money any way they wish.
2. If you pay for insurance, you pay for the repair. Maybe your insurance company hasn't picked the correct premium yet, but when theyfigure it out, the premiums will reflect the repair costs. On this point you seem naive, or intentionally obtuse, but certainly not logical.
2. Regarding anticipating consequences, see the words naive, obtuse, and not logical. Of course, everyone does that with every decision. Otherwise you are shortsighted. If you really believed your point, you wouldn't buy insurance, so I accept your retraction of that statement.
3. Oh sure, people who can repair the CGT abound. That's why the cars go back to Germany (for dissassembly) for what would otherwise be a fender-bender. And that's why a normally repairable incident leads to a total write-off.
4. Engineers aren't all idiots, only some customers are. Ultra-high tech is using all the CF the system can make. That is accepted. It is irrelevant to my point that that usage in a street car is pointless. At current prices, it would be akin to using perfect diamonds in the badge. Perfect diamonds are very expensive, diamond cutters are very talented, but putting perfect diamonds on the badge of a street car is stupid.
5. Engineers used the CF for a reason, that is true. The initial reason was to build a race car. Marketing decided to recapture the investment in a street car. That material choice for a street car is heavily compromised as it is in short supply, hard to repair, prone to shatter, difficult to predict longevity, and least important- it yellows.

Thank you for your concerns and advice on a happy life. Can you tell me which car you will live long enough to drive at 9/10ths of its potential? If you can even do that in a Corrola, I am impressed. AS

[Greg A]

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer

Mars,
I'm not sure any of your responsese[sic] are relevant to my points.
1. An F1 car is not a street car. Low weight, center of gravity, etc are critical on a race car, and much less so on a street car. For F1 it is essential, for the street (or amateur track) it is a stupid waste of money. Of course, all are free to spend their money any way they wish...AS

You misunderstood him. He was talking about the McLaren F1 road car.

Greg A

[BuddyG]

Originally Posted by themarsman

I disagree with a bunch of your points, I could state that:
1. Have you seen pictures of the McLaren F1 crash test? This car held up better than any other car I have ever seen, it didn't shatter. I have seen plenty of Carbon Fiber cars in accidents on the internet and I can't say any of them shattered. In my opinion they hold up to a crash better than any other material I have seen.
2. I have been driving for 25 years and have never been in an accident, if it happens insurance will cover the expense. Do you go through your entire life worrying about the worst case scenarios?
3. Same as 2, but I know plenty of people that can not only repair carbon fiber, but can also create new parts.
4. I have looked at reality, can you? There is a shortage of carbon fiber because it is in high demand. Do you think the trend of all of the supercars is a coincidence? Do you think the engineers are all idiots?
5. The weight savings is pretty obvious, sure the corvette is also pretty light, but it has a titanium exhaust, thin glass, less rigid, not nearly as solid, etc... Also refer to #4, the engineers use the material for a reason.
6. Carbon fiber has been used for many years and its limitations are well knows.

I own and drive the greatest car ever made and you can worry about 120K damage to your car. Do you not have insurance? I worry I won't live long enough to finally be able to drive my car at 9 / 10ths of potential.

So in summary I think you spend way too much time worrying about the what if's and should spend more time enjoying life. IMHO

I am with Mars on this, sounds like AS is afraid to step out of the house!

[insite]

Originally Posted by pcar964

I agree with you - 15 years from now, would you trust one of these CF chassis? Not sure I would. CF is used in racecars because of its light weight and strength, but racecar designers don't have to worry about longevity - with the degradation of the resins, and the tendency for CF parts to fail catastrophically (when they do fail), that's an untenable compromise for a street car, imho.

the life cycle on new fighter jets is upward of forty years with a LOT more airframe stress than a CGT. i would certainly trust a CF chassis after only 15yrs.

[themarsman]

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer

Mars,
I'm not sure any of your responsese are relevant to my points.
1. An F1 car is not a street car. Low weight, center of gravity, etc are critical on a race car, and much less so on a street car. For F1 it is essential, for the street (or amateur track) it is a stupid waste of money. Of course, all are free to spend their money any way they wish.
2. If you pay for insurance, you pay for the repair. Maybe your insurance company hasn't picked the correct premium yet, but when theyfigure it out, the premiums will reflect the repair costs. On this point you seem naive, or intentionally obtuse, but certainly not logical.
2. Regarding anticipating consequences, see the words naive, obtuse, and not logical. Of course, everyone does that with every decision. Otherwise you are shortsighted. If you really believed your point, you wouldn't buy insurance, so I accept your retraction of that statement.
3. Oh sure, people who can repair the CGT abound. That's why the cars go back to Germany (for dissassembly) for what would otherwise be a fender-bender. And that's why a normally repairable incident leads to a total write-off.
4. Engineers aren't all idiots, only some customers are. Ultra-high tech is using all the CF the system can make. That is accepted. It is irrelevant to my point that that usage in a street car is pointless. At current prices, it would be akin to using perfect diamonds in the badge. Perfect diamonds are very expensive, diamond cutters are very talented, but putting perfect diamonds on the badge of a street car is stupid.
5. Engineers used the CF for a reason, that is true. The initial reason was to build a race car. Marketing decided to recapture the investment in a street car. That material choice for a street car is heavily compromised as it is in short supply, hard to repair, prone to shatter, difficult to predict longevity, and least important- it yellows.

Thank you for your concerns and advice on a happy life. Can you tell me which car you will live long enough to drive at 9/10ths of its potential? If you can even do that in a Corrola, I am impressed. AS

Stemer:
You seem like a very unhappy person to me, I think you might want to talk to someone about that, there are people who can help.

I was talking about a road car with the McLaren F1, I would thing anyone with a small knowledge about cars would realize that.

I was also referring to virtually all supercars when I was talking about their engineers choosing carbon fiber. Their initial designs of these cars were not to build race cars, they were trying to build a great road car. Examples of supercars built mainly of carbon fiber: F40, F50, Enzo, Pagani, Veyron, SLR, Mosler, Koenesegg, etc.... I have a challenge for you: Try to find a company building a supercar that doesn't use carbon fiber.

The Carrera GT's go back to Germany to be repaired because that is where the factory wants to repair them. I know if my car is in need of repair there are plenty of people in the U.S. that can also repair the car.

I will add the insurance companies to the list of the people who you think are idiots because after two years of insuring my car they just lowered my premium on my CGT! I am now paying less than $3,500 / year for this dangerous, car that will shatter if anyone looks at it wrong. The CGT is the only car I own that I pay full insurance on, I am paying about 1% of the value of the car for piece of mind, that is why they call it insurance. I know that the true cost of the insuranace is actually less than the 3,500 / year that I am paying, but at this time I don't want a 350K hit if the car is stolen or my garage burns down. You on the other hand were worrying about 120K in damage to the CGT parked in a parking lot. If my car was stolen from the same lot or run over by a tank and it would cost me my $500.

BTW bring over your Toyota Corolla and I will do my best to drive it at 9/10th's!

[pcar964]

Originally Posted by insite

the life cycle on new fighter jets is upward of forty years with a LOT more airframe stress than a CGT. i would certainly trust a CF chassis after only 15yrs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those airframes are not just CF, they are reinforced...