Yellowing Carbon Fiber - Page 12

pcar964 · 08-30-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by themarsman

Examples of supercars built mainly of carbon fiber: F40, F50, Enzo, Pagani, Veyron, SLR, Mosler, Koenesegg, etc....

I think the F50's CF chassis has an expected life of 10 years.

insite · 08-30-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcar964

Correct me if I'm wrong, but those airframes are not just CF, they are reinforced...

there are many metal parts, but plenty of structural carbon fiber.

Alexander Stemer · 08-30-2007, 10:22 PM

Mars,
You win. I'm totally persuaded by the force of your arguements. But, CF for a road car still seems stupid to me.
Let's wait for about 10 years and reevaluate this issue. Typically, you know everything good about something the minute it is released. It takes a while to see the negatives.
Lastly Mars, I'm perfectly happy, and worry enough to try to keep things that way.AS

netburner · 08-30-2007, 11:14 PM

@VRAlex: is this your ex-beast?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...QQcmdZViewItem

Greg A · 08-31-2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netburner

@VRAlex: is this your ex-beast?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...QQcmdZViewItem

That is most likely Tony Kanaan's car. I believe Alexander has a lot more than 1060 miles. He said earlier in this thread that the car was at Caesar's Palace while the ebay car is in Miami--where Tony Kanaan resides. There is also a difference in the wheels between the two cars.

Greg A

richk · 08-31-2007, 02:21 AM

That is Tony's car...

netburner · 08-31-2007, 02:23 PM

OK, just thought it could be Alex's because of the AWE and the dark windows

dsfnctn · 08-31-2007, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS

I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...

themarsman · 08-31-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsfnctn

Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
Mars,
As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons:
1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs
2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc
3. Few can work on it
4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality)
5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette
6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad
In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS

I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later
(with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...

It is always nice to hear from experts, instead of people who think they know something!

I can just imagine the stress that your boat must go through with maximum load, I don't think a car could ever generate anywhere near the load without hitting something.

Alexander Stemer · 08-31-2007, 09:21 PM

Well Mars, it is the hitting something that breaks up the carbon fiber. Boats don't seem to do as much smacking into each other as cars.

Don't see much similarity between boats and cars, and admittedly know nothing about boats. I do agree that CF is here to stay, in applications to which it is best suited. Every time I buy a space shuttle, I will be sure to include it in the budget.

You are so close to the right answer that it hurts to watch you thrash. You seem to have so much to be happy about, I can't figure out why you keep at this. Why not just wait, with the absolute asurance of correctness that you seem to possess? Affluence, self-assurance, and arrogance have all come together at this one point (syzygy, I believe) Time will bear out one opinion or the other. I'm ready to wait. AS

netburner · 08-31-2007, 09:55 PM

AS..... do some research about what forces a sailing boat have to go through on normal water (and try to imagine how big it might be with a little bit more wind and waves) and then try to compare that to the forces at any car anywhere in the world, anyway if its made from steel, aluminium or CF have to go through on roads or maybe on tracks, without hitting something (as you said: boats don't crash as often as cars do).
And after that research and comparison try to come back and write the same dumb answer again as you just did.

As you said: you know nothing, not only about boats....

dsfnctn · 08-31-2007, 11:43 PM

The CGT would be more than compatable in this extreme enviroment(Clutch I dont know?)

TB993tt · 09-01-2007, 07:08 AM

I take your ocean swell and raise you at Beaufort 7

Boards used to often break in F7 and above environment, carbon fibre stopped all that. masts, extensions and booms -all 100% CF

Alexander Stemer · 09-01-2007, 09:22 AM

Net,
I fully agree on boats, and didn't intend to imply I didn't. Same for planes, rocket ships, etc.
The only point of my original post is that cars crash, and failing to take that into account when selecting materials means that repair costs of CF automobiles become astronomical due to propensity of CF to shatter. Sooner or later insurance companies will catch up with the loss data, and premiums will reflect those costs. Eventually buyers will become aware of the difficulties and delays of CF repair. Right now, everybody relates their understanding of cost/benefit to their past automotive experience. I am merely suggesting the jury is still out on that as it relates to CF chasis cars.

I would excise trim and detachable body panels from the arguement, as those pieces are more easily repaired, and larger production runs of components may lower costs. But, a fractured tub will be a much bigger headache than similar damage to a car with more-typical materials. And, it seems more likely that the tub will be suffer greater injury than a metal frame, given the hypothesis of idnetical accidents. Please correct me if I am wrong.
For those who are completely exempt from all concerns of expense, it becomes irrelevant, as does the purchase cost of the car, and every other 6 figure expense.
That doesn't mean the CGT isn't a great car, or CF boats or planes aren't perfectly suited for their environment. It just means, in my opinion, that CF is a very compromised choice for the core structure of a street car. The compromise is that you need to take on a lot of risk for weight loss and rigidity that aren't really apparant or necessary for 98% of the intended use of the buyer. That isn't true for the boat, pictured board, spacecraft nose cone, race car, and a probably myriad of other devices. Again, just my opinion. AS

sketchers356 · 09-05-2007, 12:37 AM

I am sorry but I feel that this thread has gone far enough off track. This thread should be about the aesthetic yellowing of the CGT's carbon fiber. If you wish to discuss if carbon fiber is a good building material please start a new thread. In the past several pages nothing has been mentioned about the important topic at hand.

Thanks.

09-01-2007, 07:08 AM	#178
TB993tt Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: UK Posts: 2,992	I take your ocean swell and raise you at Beaufort 7 Boards used to often break in F7 and above environment, carbon fibre stopped all that. masts, extensions and booms -all 100% CF __________________ 997GT2 '09 RS Tuning -engine dyno tuned 993tt RS Tuning 2006 street 3.8 MAF spec Rennlist User#386

08-30-2007, 10:22 PM	#168
Alexander Stemer Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: dune acres, Indiana Posts: 2,900	Mars, You win. I'm totally persuaded by the force of your arguements. But, CF for a road car still seems stupid to me. Let's wait for about 10 years and reevaluate this issue. Typically, you know everything good about something the minute it is released. It takes a while to see the negatives. Lastly Mars, I'm perfectly happy, and worry enough to try to keep things that way.AS

08-30-2007, 11:14 PM	#169
netburner User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 177	@VRAlex: is this your ex-beast? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2005-...QQcmdZViewItem

08-31-2007, 02:21 AM	#171
richk Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: los angeles Posts: 553	That is Tony's car...

08-31-2007, 02:23 PM	#172
netburner User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 177	OK, just thought it could be Alex's because of the AWE and the dark windows

08-31-2007, 08:46 PM	#173
dsfnctn User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 42	Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer Mars, As you may have gathered, I tend toward hyperbole. But, CF is a suboptimal material for street cars for the following reasons: 1. It shatters, resulting in small impacts becoming huge repairs 2. It doesn't lend itself to repair- send it back to Germany for disassembly, bake oven, reassembly etc 3. Few can work on it 4. It is so early in development that it is expensive, and in short supply (yes, I know "many years, space capsules etc, but look at reality) 5. The weight saving for a street car is not substantial- look at the corvette 6. Right now you know everything good about it, but it will take 10 years to find out everything bad In summary, ridiculous choice for a street car. The yellowing is of no consequence. If I had one, it wouldn't bother me at all. But knowing that some idiots' 1 second lapse in a parking lot could cost $125,000, that bothers me alot. AS I have over 100,000 ocean sailing miles on composite racing sailboats and almost 30 years around building them. Most of my miles are from sailing up wind in a hull shape that was designed for downwind sailing. Sailing flat bottom boat up wind in the ocean in a breeze with maximum load on the rig pounding in a seaway 1,500 miles from land is asking for forgiviness from the carbon fiber. After 5 years and still the same flogging of the boat and thousands of sea miles later (with no yellowing of the clear coating) I can say I know what I am doing. I have rebuilt a CGT that was totaled with 100% sucess , have even offered on this thread to repair any carbon related problems but I must say I really get tired of other people that have to offer incorrect information that complicates the problem further. Carbon Fiber is here to stay you idiots...

08-31-2007, 09:21 PM	#175
Alexander Stemer Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: dune acres, Indiana Posts: 2,900	Well Mars, it is the hitting something that breaks up the carbon fiber. Boats don't seem to do as much smacking into each other as cars. Don't see much similarity between boats and cars, and admittedly know nothing about boats. I do agree that CF is here to stay, in applications to which it is best suited. Every time I buy a space shuttle, I will be sure to include it in the budget. You are so close to the right answer that it hurts to watch you thrash. You seem to have so much to be happy about, I can't figure out why you keep at this. Why not just wait, with the absolute asurance of correctness that you seem to possess? Affluence, self-assurance, and arrogance have all come together at this one point (syzygy, I believe) Time will bear out one opinion or the other. I'm ready to wait. AS

08-31-2007, 09:55 PM	#176
netburner User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 177	AS..... do some research about what forces a sailing boat have to go through on normal water (and try to imagine how big it might be with a little bit more wind and waves) and then try to compare that to the forces at any car anywhere in the world, anyway if its made from steel, aluminium or CF have to go through on roads or maybe on tracks, without hitting something (as you said: boats don't crash as often as cars do). And after that research and comparison try to come back and write the same dumb answer again as you just did. As you said: you know nothing, not only about boats....

09-01-2007, 09:22 AM	#179
Alexander Stemer Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: dune acres, Indiana Posts: 2,900	Net, I fully agree on boats, and didn't intend to imply I didn't. Same for planes, rocket ships, etc. The only point of my original post is that cars crash, and failing to take that into account when selecting materials means that repair costs of CF automobiles become astronomical due to propensity of CF to shatter. Sooner or later insurance companies will catch up with the loss data, and premiums will reflect those costs. Eventually buyers will become aware of the difficulties and delays of CF repair. Right now, everybody relates their understanding of cost/benefit to their past automotive experience. I am merely suggesting the jury is still out on that as it relates to CF chasis cars. I would excise trim and detachable body panels from the arguement, as those pieces are more easily repaired, and larger production runs of components may lower costs. But, a fractured tub will be a much bigger headache than similar damage to a car with more-typical materials. And, it seems more likely that the tub will be suffer greater injury than a metal frame, given the hypothesis of idnetical accidents. Please correct me if I am wrong. For those who are completely exempt from all concerns of expense, it becomes irrelevant, as does the purchase cost of the car, and every other 6 figure expense. That doesn't mean the CGT isn't a great car, or CF boats or planes aren't perfectly suited for their environment. It just means, in my opinion, that CF is a very compromised choice for the core structure of a street car. The compromise is that you need to take on a lot of risk for weight loss and rigidity that aren't really apparant or necessary for 98% of the intended use of the buyer. That isn't true for the boat, pictured board, spacecraft nose cone, race car, and a probably myriad of other devices. Again, just my opinion. AS

09-05-2007, 12:37 AM	#180
sketchers356 User Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Andover, NY Posts: 8	I am sorry but I feel that this thread has gone far enough off track. This thread should be about the aesthetic yellowing of the CGT's carbon fiber. If you wish to discuss if carbon fiber is a good building material please start a new thread. In the past several pages nothing has been mentioned about the important topic at hand. Thanks.