Yellowing Carbon Fiber - Page 7

dsfnctn · 08-03-2007, 10:11 PM

I PM my contact info. Did you recieve it?
Colin

VRAlexander · 08-04-2007, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dsfnctn

I PM my contact info. Did you recieve it?
Colin

I just did...thank you....I will give you a call..

VRAlexander · 08-04-2007, 06:03 PM

Well here is the final....PCNA Called yesterday with yet another story! PCNA said that they would NOT stand behind their warranty on Carbon Fiber parts on the CGT.... I asked for him to put this in writing for me and send it...he said he already did... I can't wait to read the letter...Congrats Porsche, not only did you loose a long time customer that has owned 12 Porsches...but you got yourself a very public lawsuit and a PR nightmare to come....

Anyone want to buy my CGT? Contact Ben Nef at Exotic Cars at Caesar in Las Vegas next week (702)308-5690....she will be on the showroom floor!

Also, If anyone owns or knows of a CGT that is 'yellowing' please contact me via PM...I have 41 documented so far with full photos...

Thanks guys for your support!

netburner · 08-04-2007, 08:40 PM

Will be at my mates home next week and will have a look if "german" CGTs have the same problems as yours. Also interesting for me.

VRAlexander · 08-04-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netburner

Will be at my mates home next week and will have a look if "german" CGTs have the same problems as yours. Also interesting for me.

Thank you...I will carry all the attorney costs if he has a similar issue and wants Porsche to make it right...The Lawfirm that I retained to deal with Porsche is International and has dealt with them before and won on several cases...They offered to take the case on contingency saying that this is a straight forward issue that they will have to address...

Someone mentioned before that they knew of a case where Porsche they did warranty carbon on a CGT....Could you please PM me so we can talk.

Thanks again

VRAlexander · 08-04-2007, 10:47 PM

Here are some more photos from the yellowing...I am having some studio photos taken tomorrow of the Carbon tub on the car that is showing spots of yellowing...It am so disapointed that a car manufacturer who built (in my opinion) the best supercar for the street will not stand behind their product at all...

The roof panel and the engine compartment are getting worse and worse...

fayence · 08-05-2007, 01:45 AM

Well, please let us know what happens (and PM me if you can), as when you resolve this, unfortunately for them, I'll probably want to give them a call as well.

VRAlexander · 08-05-2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fayence

Well, please let us know what happens (and PM me if you can), as when you resolve this, unfortunately for them, I'll probably want to give them a call as well.

Give Eric (Service Manager) a call at Stead...he is behind us 100% and also thinks this is BS (925) 280-4900 or you can call the regional Manager at 415-990-1040, but he is just the messenger for Porsche and has no opinion on this! I will give you a call and and keep ypu updated. The Add. ageny that I hired to spearhead the campaign against Porsche will probably set up a dedicated web site for this... Also, can you post this over on 6speed to see how many other CGT owners are experiencing this problem?

Thanks Paul.

///Mayor · 08-05-2007, 09:26 AM

Hey guys,

My name is Jesse Mayor and I am a long-time car affecianado. I don't own a C-GT, but I have worked with carbon fiber quite extensively and have carbon fiber on both two of my motorcycles and on two cars that I've owned...both in forms from the manufacturer and in aftermarket parts.

I also work with a manufacturing house overseas that makes carbon fiber parts. I can tell you from experience that yellowing of carbon fiber is a manufacturing finishing defect and has nothing to do with the carbon fiber fabric itself. It is the actual resin that is used to hold the shape of the carbon fiber fabric itself that can be effected by UV disruption...and it doesn't take much. Whether the fabric is preimpregnated fabric that is autoclave molded, or it is wet layed and vacuum bagged, the same type of resin is used and is all subject to the same type of damage.

The reason (which I'm sure you know by now) that the carbon fiber is yellowing is that it was not adequately protected from UV damage - this statement was also said by dsfnctn, the composite boat builder. I am not sure what the 'lacquer' that was referenced to from the Porsche owner's manual is exactly, but it should have been clear coated with a UV protectant paint just like the regular paint on your car...most of the time it is an acrylic urethane. I'll post some pics of some of the products that I've sold to customers in the past (several hundred pieces over several years...never a single finish or discoloration complaint). The yellowing can't be 'repaired' either...it is in the resin so it is now part of the structural part of the carbon fiber.

If you want my opinion, I don't think it has anything to do with Porsche at all....although I am very disturbed by they way they are handling it. I think that it has to do with the fact that they may need to have pieces re-made for your car to rectify the issue, and if that is the case there are several things that may be complicating that issue. One of which is the cost of carbon fiber now... carbon fiber fabric has gone up in price 10-fold in some cases. The manufacturer that I purchased parts from buys it in rolls from Japan, and they recently paid almost 2x more than they had in the past. Just getting carbon fiber right now could even be a challenge...there is such a shortage of it from the USA's war efforts that it is effecting supply all over the globe. Toray (known to be the highest quality CF manufacturing facility) is actually building another carbon fiber production plant to keep up with the demand, but of course that will take time.

So it may be that the original producer of the carbon fiber parts is refusing to remanufacter parts for Porsche AG due to the fact that it would cost them more in material to make said parts than they probably collected from Porsche AG to make the parts the first go-around.

This is all speculation of course, but I would not be surprised at all if the economy of carbon fiber itself is affecting this entire scenario. The bottom line to me though is that Porsche needs to work something out with the original manufacturer and honor it's warranty on these parts. They should not let the end-user be effected by market conditions, even if it costs them more money. If you're entire car starting glowing gold/yellow, would they say that the paint is fine and it would not be covered under warranty either?

Here are pics of some of the carbon fiber products I've used and sold:

EDIT: Will post later; I don't have enough posts on this forum to do so.

These pieces are all sprayed with an acrylic urethane clear coat that protects the resin from UV damage. The UV protection should be good for a very, very long time!! I have CF products that have been on my car for longer than 5 years and neve discolored...although I do wax them so that may help with longevity. Still... it should never be an issue. By the way... I am not advertising my products in any way shape or form; in fact I am not involved with that business at this time!

Hope this helps the cause VR!

CarreraX · 08-05-2007, 11:02 AM

I just stumbled on this post. All I can say is "WOW"! I thought that I was mad at the yellowing CF on my old 996!!! Good thing I cant afford a CGT or I would be really pissed. Hopefully you can get Porsche to stand behind it. It is their responsibility even if it is their suppliers fault.

VRAlexander · 08-05-2007, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarreraX

I just stumbled on this post. All I can say is "WOW"! I thought that I was mad at the yellowing CF on my old 996!!! Good thing I cant afford a CGT or I would be really pissed. Hopefully you can get Porsche to stand behind it. It is their responsibility even if it is their suppliers fault.

I can relate to that as well...my 2001 996 turbo had major carbon fiber issues as well and Porsche replaced the yellowing/faded pieces without question (you would think they learn by now)! As for Porsche Cars, this is going to be a serious wake-up call for them! The phone is ringing and they are not picking up for me....but tomorrow 30+ phones will be ringing at Porsche from people like http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ (I just filed a complaint with them about Porsche) regarding this and they are going to be forced to deal with this!!

JasonAndreas · 08-05-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRAlexander

but tomorrow 30+ phones will be ringing at Porsche from people like http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ (I just filed a complaint with them about Porsche) regarding this and they are going to be forced to deal with this!!

This is not a safety issue unless in this specific case the UV degradation leads to delamination, so the NHTSA won't be able to help you. I suppose you could try the FTC but (from experience) they are probably just going to tell you to handle it on your own (in court).

CarreraX · 08-05-2007, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VRAlexander

I can relate to that as well...my 2001 996 turbo had major carbon fiber issues as well and Porsche replaced the yellowing/faded pieces without question (you would think they learn by now)! As for Porsche Cars, this is going to be a serious wake-up call for them! The phone is ringing and they are not picking up for me....but tomorrow 30+ phones will be ringing at Porsche from people like http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/ (I just filed a complaint with them about Porsche) regarding this and they are going to be forced to deal with this!!

Well, I do feel for you. In an attempt to make you feel better, I have a 95 993 without any worrysome carbon fiber that I will gladly trade for your CGT. This way it will be one less thing for you to worry about

Oak · 08-05-2007, 05:25 PM

don't worry about it, it's the epoxy resins that turns yellow. structurally speaking it's not any weaker. infact most of the stonger epoxy resin turn yellow.

speedster 94 · 08-05-2007, 06:13 PM

hallo
i just bought a CGT , german car ( i am in Germany ) and it looks exactly like yours . The Monocoque is nice and silver , the Doorpanels are yellow .
Harald

08-05-2007, 09:26 AM	#99
///Mayor New User Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 3	Yellowing carbon fiber is a manufacturing defect!! Hey guys, My name is Jesse Mayor and I am a long-time car affecianado. I don't own a C-GT, but I have worked with carbon fiber quite extensively and have carbon fiber on both two of my motorcycles and on two cars that I've owned...both in forms from the manufacturer and in aftermarket parts. I also work with a manufacturing house overseas that makes carbon fiber parts. I can tell you from experience that yellowing of carbon fiber is a manufacturing finishing defect and has nothing to do with the carbon fiber fabric itself. It is the actual resin that is used to hold the shape of the carbon fiber fabric itself that can be effected by UV disruption...and it doesn't take much. Whether the fabric is preimpregnated fabric that is autoclave molded, or it is wet layed and vacuum bagged, the same type of resin is used and is all subject to the same type of damage. The reason (which I'm sure you know by now) that the carbon fiber is yellowing is that it was not adequately protected from UV damage - this statement was also said by dsfnctn, the composite boat builder. I am not sure what the 'lacquer' that was referenced to from the Porsche owner's manual is exactly, but it should have been clear coated with a UV protectant paint just like the regular paint on your car...most of the time it is an acrylic urethane. I'll post some pics of some of the products that I've sold to customers in the past (several hundred pieces over several years...never a single finish or discoloration complaint). The yellowing can't be 'repaired' either...it is in the resin so it is now part of the structural part of the carbon fiber. If you want my opinion, I don't think it has anything to do with Porsche at all....although I am very disturbed by they way they are handling it. I think that it has to do with the fact that they may need to have pieces re-made for your car to rectify the issue, and if that is the case there are several things that may be complicating that issue. One of which is the cost of carbon fiber now... carbon fiber fabric has gone up in price 10-fold in some cases. The manufacturer that I purchased parts from buys it in rolls from Japan, and they recently paid almost 2x more than they had in the past. Just getting carbon fiber right now could even be a challenge...there is such a shortage of it from the USA's war efforts that it is effecting supply all over the globe. Toray (known to be the highest quality CF manufacturing facility) is actually building another carbon fiber production plant to keep up with the demand, but of course that will take time. So it may be that the original producer of the carbon fiber parts is refusing to remanufacter parts for Porsche AG due to the fact that it would cost them more in material to make said parts than they probably collected from Porsche AG to make the parts the first go-around. This is all speculation of course, but I would not be surprised at all if the economy of carbon fiber itself is affecting this entire scenario. The bottom line to me though is that Porsche needs to work something out with the original manufacturer and honor it's warranty on these parts. They should not let the end-user be effected by market conditions, even if it costs them more money. If you're entire car starting glowing gold/yellow, would they say that the paint is fine and it would not be covered under warranty either? Here are pics of some of the carbon fiber products I've used and sold: EDIT: Will post later; I don't have enough posts on this forum to do so. These pieces are all sprayed with an acrylic urethane clear coat that protects the resin from UV damage. The UV protection should be good for a very, very long time!! I have CF products that have been on my car for longer than 5 years and neve discolored...although I do wax them so that may help with longevity. Still... it should never be an issue. By the way... I am not advertising my products in any way shape or form; in fact I am not involved with that business at this time! Hope this helps the cause VR!

08-05-2007, 05:25 PM	#104
Oak Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: USA Posts: 1,584	don't worry about it, it's the epoxy resins that turns yellow. structurally speaking it's not any weaker. infact most of the stonger epoxy resin turn yellow. __________________ Oak 996tt

08-05-2007, 06:13 PM	#105
speedster 94 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: germany Posts: 237	hallo i just bought a CGT , german car ( i am in Germany ) and it looks exactly like yours . The Monocoque is nice and silver , the Doorpanels are yellow . Harald __________________ 356 Roadster 964 speedster 944 Turbo Cup 993 TT Stage 2 980 CGT

08-03-2007, 10:11 PM	#91
dsfnctn User Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 43	I PM my contact info. Did you recieve it? Colin

08-04-2007, 06:03 PM	#93
VRAlexander User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 245	Well here is the final....PCNA Called yesterday with yet another story! PCNA said that they would NOT stand behind their warranty on Carbon Fiber parts on the CGT.... I asked for him to put this in writing for me and send it...he said he already did... I can't wait to read the letter...Congrats Porsche, not only did you loose a long time customer that has owned 12 Porsches...but you got yourself a very public lawsuit and a PR nightmare to come.... Anyone want to buy my CGT? Contact Ben Nef at Exotic Cars at Caesar in Las Vegas next week (702)308-5690....she will be on the showroom floor! Also, If anyone owns or knows of a CGT that is 'yellowing' please contact me via PM...I have 41 documented so far with full photos... Thanks guys for your support!

08-04-2007, 08:40 PM	#94
netburner User Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 178	Will be at my mates home next week and will have a look if "german" CGTs have the same problems as yours. Also interesting for me.

08-04-2007, 10:47 PM	#96
VRAlexander User Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 245	Here are some more photos from the yellowing...I am having some studio photos taken tomorrow of the Carbon tub on the car that is showing spots of yellowing...It am so disapointed that a car manufacturer who built (in my opinion) the best supercar for the street will not stand behind their product at all... The roof panel and the engine compartment are getting worse and worse...

08-05-2007, 01:45 AM	#97
fayence User Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Hillsborough, CA Posts: 162	Well, please let us know what happens (and PM me if you can), as when you resolve this, unfortunately for them, I'll probably want to give them a call as well.

08-05-2007, 11:02 AM	#100
CarreraX Addict Lifetime Rennlist Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Dayton Ohio.....Americas Playground!!! Posts: 1,085	I just stumbled on this post. All I can say is "WOW"! I thought that I was mad at the yellowing CF on my old 996!!! Good thing I cant afford a CGT or I would be really pissed. Hopefully you can get Porsche to stand behind it. It is their responsibility even if it is their suppliers fault.