brett968

I'm currently in possession of 4--yes, FOUR--Cayenne S transmissions, none of which are actually serviceable nor installed in my Cayenne S:

Transmission 1 - the original transmission: Lasted 302,000 miles before it gave out ~6 weeks ago. It started to shift terribly, and not at all sometimes. The car was undriveable. A quick forensics examination found significant amounts of aluminum shavings in the pan. I had never seen any shavings when servicing the transmission previously (@ 150k and 270k miles). I had installed a rebuilt valve body from RevMax less than a year prior. Talked to them and showed them pictures. They advised that based on the evidence the transmission was in need of a rebuild. At 300k miles this sounded reasonable. I sent the valve body back to have it cleaned and checked out so that I could use it in the replacement transmission. They indicated that they found significant amounts of sediment inside the valve body. However, they were able to get everything back to tiptop shape.

Transmission 2 - 1 of 2 from Dismantler A: I purchased a 90k mile transmission from a salvage yard. When I removed the pan on the transmission to prepare it for installation, I found aluminum shavings similar to those that were in my grenaded original transmission. There were not nearly as many shavings, maybe 30-50% of transmission 1 but still quite a bit. The shavings were large enough that I could feel them with my fingers. Magnets looked OK, about what I would expect. I sent the images of the shavings to the salvage yard. They admitted that this was not normal and were very apologetic. They agreed to send a second transmission.

Transmission 3 - 2 of 2 from Dismantler A: This transmission had 120k miles. Upon receipt, I noticed that the centering pin on the torque converter was sheared straight off and there were chisel marks on the torque converter. I don't understand what they were thinking sending me this thing. Total garbage. I didn't go any further with this transmission and I was granted a refund.

Transmission 4 - Dismantler B: Next, I bought a 45k mile transmission that, from outward appearance, was in great shape. I have used this dismantler in the past and their products are always well packaged and their eBay listings are detailed with good pictures of the products. I received this transmission today. Surely a clean 45k mile transmission would be good, right? Nope, once again metal shavings. Probably about half of what was in transmission 2. The pictures below are from transmission number 4.





Next, out of curiosity, I decided to take a look inside transmission 3. This was the unit that had the damaged torque converter. Took the pan off. No metal shavings. Too bad they destroyed the torque converter and likely the transmission pump when they decided to bang on it with a chisel and hammer.

So, who thinks transmission number 5 will be the winner?

This is past the point of being ridiculous.

brett968

So I messaged "Dismantler B" through eBay to inform them of the issue with the transmission (#4). This is the message I sent them last night along with the same pictures I posted above:

Quote:

Hi,

I received the transmission today. It was very well packaged and arrived undamaged. I appreciate your attention to detail. Everything looked great with the transmission externally. Unfortunately, upon removing the transmission pan to replace the filter and gasket I immediately discovered aluminum shavings in the pan. Please see the attached pictures. There was a good amount of metal debris. The shavings are large enough that I can easily feel the sharp edges of the shavings with my fingers. Clearly this is not a good sign and is highly unusual for a transmission with only 45k miles on it. (The magnets looked fine though and had the amount of fine ferrous particles that I would expect from a 45k mile transmission.) Have you seen this kind of damage before on a low mileage transmission? Could it be due to the wreck or the way the car was towed/moved following the wreck? It's just really surprising to me. Sadly, there is just no way I would feel comfortable installing this transmission in my vehicle. The only time I have ever seen metal shavings like this in a transmission were when it was exhibiting serious problems- bad shifting, slipping, etc.

My only interest is in getting a good transmission to put back into my car. I see that you have another suitable transmission that has almost identical miles to the one that I purchased:

[LINK REMOVED]

Please let me know what you guys can do.

Thank you,
Brett

I finally received a response after lunch:



Wow. Just wow.

My response:

This sucks.

nodoors

I feel your pain. I once went through a similar experience with radiators in a classic car. It was a situation where there were no aftermarket options and replacement was a huge pain that required body work that required 3 or more people to help. I ended up with a stack of about 4 leaky and or just slightly the wrong radiators until I finally just paid a shop to fabricate a new one. Perhaps finding a good transmission shop that knows Aisins well to (re)build a good transmission between the spares might be the best option at this point?

brett968

Thanks for sharing, nodoors. I considered getting a transmission rebuild but I couldn't find anyone even nationally that advertised having experience in rebuilding the TR60SN. It has always seemed to me that people who bring their vehicles to transmission shops become repeat customers for the same car and same problem. Considering that the number of people reporting transmission issues with these cars, other than valve body related problems, is relatively low, a low-mileage used transmission seemed like the best option. I think I've just had exceptionally bad luck here. Dismantler B has another unit with 45k miles on it that looks great from outward appearances (although the one they sent me did too), but they won't respond to my messages or answer their phone. If I don't get a resolution from them soon, I will be disclosing their name here as I don't want anyone else to have to go through this with them.

deilenberger

I think since the basic same transmission is used in Toyota Land Cruisers that some local shop might be familiar with them. You might ask the friendly local Toyota dealer who does their rebuilds (if they offer that..)

brett968

This is "Dismantler B". They finally responded to my last message and it is just a stripped down version of the first reply--nothing new. Note how in my first reply I had expressed my frustration that they sent me a scripted cut-and-pasted response and neglected to even read my message. Here they are doing the same thing! If the responses weren't so delayed, I'd think that the replies were automated.

That's great! So if I can somehow find a way to ship a 300+lb pallet across the country, at my expense and wait a week for it to arrive then they will be gracious enough to refund me my money, or give me store credit, on a defective transmission that they sent me which they should have known was defective as all they had to do was look at the transmission fluid! If I choose the replacement option, in 3 weeks time (best case) I can be in possession of another transmission which may or may not be bad--I won't know until I check the transmission pan as evidently they don't even perform this basic check!

Mike says that he wants to "make it right for" me but offers no reasonable solutions. I just want a **** transmission that is usable! They have another transmission with almost exactly the same mileage (I even sent him the link for this one). Check the pan for metal shavings and if it checks out, send me that one. If they want the old one back (which is essentially scrap metal) then they can take it back at their expense. Is this so unreasonable? I told them IMMEDIATELY (within hours of receipt) that the transmission they sent me was bad. They should have offered this solution, why should I have to spell it out for them?

The thing about this seller is that in many ways they are one of the more professional dismantlers on eBay in terms of pictures of the items, descriptions, and the packaging is very good. I have bought items from them in the past and have had good experiences except for one other time. But none of this matters if your customer service sucks! They do not answer their calls and you have seen how they reply to written messages. One of their numbers uses an automated answering service that asks for your name so that they can screen their calls. The mythical Mike's voice mailbox is "full and cannot accept any more messages at this time, goodbye!". I was able to leave a message at one of their phone numbers but no one ever called me back.

deilenberger

Brett,

Ever know a kid who growing up wanted nothing more than to run a junkyard of wrecked cars when they grew up? I can't say I have.,

The cut and paste replies may be because the person doing the replies isn't particularly computer competent - and the replies were designed to be soothing and non-confrontational.

Inefficient businesses don't often handle communications very well - full mailboxes, failures to return calls. I doubt if the owner of the junkyard was a business major in college.

I think they've offered you a reasonable dissolution of your business with them. Send them back the transmission and go find one elsewhere that suits your needs. It seems obvious that if 3 transmissions were unsuitable, chances are the next one will be unsuitable too. What happened with the other defective transmissions you were sent? Didn't they want them back?

If it was me (and you aren't) - I think I'd take a sample of the fluid with whatever those particles are to a few transmission places and ask if they have a clue where they came from. Since they were in the fluid in the pan I doubt if they made it through the filter assembly and up into the works of the transmission. Could be someone sloppy with the parking pawl.. chewed some bits off, in that case pretty much harmless. If I couldn't get a guess as to what they are - I'd change the transmission oil (use the Toyota stuff) and try installing it and seeing if it works properly. Lots of work - but a definitive answer if the transmission is flawed or not.

I know you're frustrated - but consider you're dealing with a junkyard, not a professional office operation (which can be equally frustrating..)

brett968

Thanks for the reply, Don.

LOL, yeah, point taken.

Well, if that's true it had the opposite effect. They don't seem to have any trouble posting their listings and responding quickly to bids.

Transmissions #2 and #3 were from a different dismantler. They refunded my money and they didn't want the transmissions back as they knew from the evidence that I sent them that the transmissions were no good and would cost more to ship back then they were worth. Although they did send me bad transmissions, this dismantler communicated well and accepted responsibility. I respect that a lot.

Dismantler B has only sent me the one transmission (#4). This isn't something I can take down to the UPS Store and ship back for $30. Shipping the unit back is going to cost me a small fortune, likely $250+, and I have to go through the trouble of somehow arranging a freight shipment, be at my house for the freight driver, etc. This is an enormous inconvenience. The transmission they sent me was damaged (metal shavings) and they should have known to check for this problem. I shouldn't be responsible for the return shipping. As I contacted the seller within hours of receipt and documented the damage, I know that eBay policy is on my side here. The thing is, I actually want one of their other transmissions. They are the only outfit that I can find that has transmissions with less than 90k miles on them. They have one unit with 45k and another with 60k, both of which look nice from outward appearances. I just replaced the engine in this car 10k miles ago and I would like to pair it with a nice low-mileage transmission. If I knew of any other options, I would simply start the return process with eBay and be done with them. If anybody reading this has any prospects for a good transmission with reasonably low mileage, please let me know!

What I saw in transmission #4 had the exact signature of the metal shavings that I saw in my original transmission when it went out. I examined both under a microscope. I sent the valve body from my original transmission back to RevMax and they said it was contaminated with metal fragments. In all likelihood I would be right back where I started with transmission #4 within a short time period.

True. It sucks that Porsche doesn't sell these transmissions as rebuilt units. I'd drop $4-6k on a rebuilt factory unit if it was available.

brett968

So Dismantler B finally got back to me and said that they would exchange the bad transmission for the other 45k mile unit that they have and they agreed to pay return shipping. I asked them to check the pan before sending as I don't want a repeat situation. I'm going to edit out their name from my post above for now and give them a chance to follow through with their promises.

hopsis

I worked as a transmission repair tech until just a couple of months ago, right until all this covid bulls*it closed the shop. Rebuilding that Aisin unit would cost somewhere ~2500€ (roughly 3000€). Porsche doesn't rebuild them, they would just use factory furbished units but basically all the parts come from the same factory. If You take all the boxes You now have and haul them to a good local transmission repair shop and let them check which one is the best to begin with, You should be able to get a good-as-new unit for half of the 4-6k€ money. It is actually a quite easy unit to work on, no special tools are required and keep in mind, the design is already 20 years old so all the information is out there.

brett968

Thanks, hopsis. Unfortunately, I live 2 hours from the nearest city large enough to have a transmission shop with experience with these or similar transmissions. The few nearby shops are used to Ford F150's and the like, not so much these fancy imports (lol). Last time I had my wheels balanced, the tech came out and told me that my car was the first Porsche (he pronounced it 'Porsh', one syllable) that he had worked on. That was the last thing that I wanted to hear.

I'm curious, since you're an experienced transmission repair tech do you have any guesses as to where the metal shavings in the images I posted came from and what might have caused this problem on a 45k mile transmission? They are almost certainly aluminum. Torque converter? Magnets looked normal to me and had about the amount of metal powder that I would expect for 45k miles. The donor car had been hit in the front. Do you think they could have damaged the transmission by the way the car was towed?

deilenberger

The only reason I can think of why all of these would have the same particles in the oil is they're all out of wrecks. And after an accident, usually, the tow companies are going to do whatever they need to in order to clear the road as quickly as possible, perhaps pulling the wreck along with wheels down. Maybe that's the common flaw. That would make it really difficult to find one without that issue.

brett968

Yeah, Don, that was my thinking as well. It doesn't seem like it would be a huge problem if the car was moved 50-100 feet or so with the rear wheels on the ground to get the car out of the way of traffic. But if the car was towed any distance and at any significant speed that way, I would think that all bets are off. This is how I understand it (I fully admit limited knowledge of the inner workings of automatic transmissions): The nose of the torque converter drives the transmission pump, which among other things keeps the transmission components lubricated. Let's say the car was towed with the rear wheels down and with the transmission in neutral. As the transfer case will still be engaged, this will cause the transmission output shaft to turn along with other components within the transmission. However, turning the output shaft will not drive the torque converter and hence the transmission pump will not be pumping fluid and the transmission components would not receive lubrication. I could see how this could quickly lead to internal damage to the transmission.

It also seems like the transfer case is likely to be damaged by towing in this manner due to overheating of the viscous clutch (or perhaps also overspeeding of the differential?).

Flat bedding the car would avoid this. So assuming that this hypothesis explains what caused the damage to the two transmissions which I received that had the metal shavings, what I need is a transmission from a car that was flat-bedded, not wheel-lift towed.

hopsis

Aluminium shavings, if they are large enough to be seen and can be picked up would likely be the result of parts spinning without lubrication. Just moving the car out of the road wouldn't do any damage but towing it for 50 miles with rear wheels on the ground and front wheels on the dolly would be enough. As stated here earlier, transmission oil pump is driven by crankshaft. You can tow an automatic transmission car 10 times around the globe and it will be fine as long as the engine is running. If the engine and therefore trans oil pump is not running, there will be damage after a while. Usually the various bearings in the outer case fail first resulting in oil leaks.

brett968

Dismantler B has TOTALLY dropped the ball. They promised me a return label but they won't provide it. Now they have just recently messaged me and they expect me to pay another $1000+ for the replacement unit and wait to be refunded when they get the damaged unit back. Or I can wait for them to receive the damaged unit back (which I can't even send back because they won't provide me with the return label that they promised!) and then wait another 1 week minimum to get a replacement (that's assuming they do as they say, which so far has NOT been the case). If they had taken action within a reasonable time then they would already have the damaged unit back!!! It's been over a week since I informed them of the issue and they're just going around in circles. I highly recommend that people use caution with "**************" on eBay, especially with big ticket mechanical items (engines, transmissions) or anything that isn't easily returned. If you need customer service after the sale, you can forget about it. I been an eBay'er for nearly 20 years and I have never had such a bad experience with a seller.

Anyways...

So it looks like my best option at this point is to rebuild a transmission myself using either either transmission #2 or #3 as the main core and pulling from units #1, 2, and 3 as needed. hopsis, I may need your help!

I got a copy of the ATSG service manual for the TR60SN transmission and I have reviewed it. The manual is excellent. I feel confident I can rebuild it successfully. This will be my first automatic transmission rebuild but I've done just about everything else you can do mechanically with a car (and I'm a mechanical engineer). I'll try to document the process here to help others that may have to do this in the future.

hopsis, what is your recommendation for the transmission pump? My impression is that these are wear items that should ideally be replaced. I have a strong suspicion that is what went out in my original transmission (I think it had been whining for for a long time). The lowest mileage unit that I have has 90k miles on it. Would you feel comfortable reusing a 90k mile transmission pump in a rebuild? Do you know of any sources for new/rebuilt transmission pumps? I couldn't find any.