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Took delivery of our new Cayenne a couple of weeks ago. I opened the passenger-side battery compartment and noticed that the battery is an AGM, not lithium as stated in the manual. Anyone else have an AGM in their 2022? Could this be a Covid-related substitution?
This is great, exciting news! AGM is much cheaper and readily available than the proprietary $1,800 LFP battery. Would also open the possibility of using generic LFP batteries.
Until now, it wasn’t possible to install AGM battery without the ECU switching to emergency power mode, due to lack of LIN bus input. Would love to see a photo of the battery. Especially interested if it has a sensor on the negative terminal that tells the ECU about the battery’s state-of-charge.
Or, sadly, it might have a connector integrated into the battery case. That would be bad news, as it would be another over-priced, not in stock, proprietary battery that takes a month to arrive from Germany.
Terminal mounted sensor would look similar to this:
OEM LFP battery with LIN Bus connector integrated into the battery case:
It's a Varta AGM and yes, it does look like a LIN buss connector on the negative post - will post photo later. I am somewhat of a battery nerd, as we own a cruising sailboat and live off of batteries. Have had AGMs to last seven years in hard deep-cycling applications, so I was happy to see the AGM. Had to make a new battery decision for the boat a couple of years ago and spent many hours reviewing research and consulting with experts in the field. Decided on a newer lead technology (carbon-foam) over LiFePO4, due to complexity issues. Sure, LiFePO4 weighs alot less, but lead-acid batteries are pretty bulletproof.
That is great news to see they did that... that does mean an aftermarket Lithium will be able to be used. I assume the reason for the change is cost cutting and that because the A123 Systems Battery lacked the ability to be woken from protection mode easily, combined with the lack of availablity most likely all played a part. I personally hope they understand that having a proprietary battery, and not stocking it is one of the silliest things a manufacturer could do on this type of product. A battery should be one item that does not require you to have to go to a dealer to get and then have to wait for it and not be able to drive your car.
Has anyone else taken deliver seen the same thing?
Campy, I asssume they gave you an H7 or H8, can you confirm that as well?
That is great news to see they did that... that does mean an aftermarket Lithium will be able to be used . . .
@Antigravity Yes, this is great news. Next steps: Find a compatible battery sensor and Battery registration.
For the BEM Code, will your manufacturer number and serial number be recognized by the ECU? I heard Porsche / VAG has a closed system, i.e. the ECU is looking for a specific BEM code from the new OEM replacement battery, similar to a Microsoft activation code. Others, like BMW have and open system that only requires coding the battery size and capacity. https://www.bannerbatterien.com/en-g...stop-batteries
I see that you sell H8 batteries for about half the cost of OEM Porsche batteries. 👍🏼 Now we just have to:
(1) Find a compatible battery sensor.
(2) Figure out how to register the replacement battery.
Trying to follow this… does AntiGravity make a direct OEM style lithium replacement battery for the Cayenne?
Not exactly; nobody does. Antigravity makes a wide variety of sizes, including H8. They work great on vehicles that don’t require an internal battery sensor that communicates via LIN bus. Not to be confused with a Battery Management System which is internal to the battery and manages battery charging, cell voltage balancing, and safety shutoff.
Most vehicles with Start / Stop need to know the battery status so it won’t shut off the engine if the battery charge is low. It also restricts use of high demand systems such as heated seats, windshields, etc if the alternator can’t keep up with the load and it is causing further battery discharge.
The Cayenne uses a smart-charge alternator that depends on battery data from the LIN bus. It is much more sophisticated than the voltage regulators of old. It can stop charging during high engine loads (Sport Response!) to maximize performance. Conversely, it will maximize charging during engine overruns for better fuel economy.
The OEM Lithium battery is specially manufactured with an internal battery sensor with an integrated LIN connector. Antigravity, along with other replacement battery companies don’t have internal battery sensors.
What we are excited about is Porsche’s use of an externally mounted battery sensor. This means that we can now use any manufacturer’s replacement battery. Just two issues remain: We need to install a compatible battery sensor on the negative terminal. We need to figure out how to register the battery.
@Antigravity Please come up with a solution for all Porsche battery & power systems. I'm more than sure you'd sell 1000s of batteries if you do, esp if you give a discount to PCA members & Rennlist members.
I see that you sell H8 batteries for about half the cost of OEM Porsche batteries. 👍🏼 Now we just have to:
(1) Find a compatible battery sensor.
(2) Figure out how to register the replacement battery.
Hey Schnave, thanks for looking that up. I assumed they would put the H8 so they can get as many Amp Hours as possible, I know most all modern SUVs do have quite a bit of accessory draw so you need that big battery, and from seeing the posts on Renn the Cayenne draws down batteries quick.
In regards to the following....
(1)The Need To Find a compatible battery sensor....
There should not, in most all circumstances, be a need to find a compatible Battery Sensor. Meaning the Intelligent Battery Sensor that you point out in your Images and in the images provided by Campy Speed should work with any battery installed. The reason is because these exterior Intelliegent Battery Sensor systems (IBS), for these vehicles and others, will not know the difference between Batteries or Battery types. They generally will be simply reporting data from being connected to the Battery's Terminals and then reporting the information to the Cars system. This is how it is on most all mondern Car systems already. To clafiry... all modern Cars come with an IBS which measures the Voltage,Current with a shunt as well as other data points regarding the battery including the temperature of the terminal side they are connected to, but in essence they do not require any special compatibility since they connect directly to the Battery's Terminals as they will to a Lithium Batteries Terminals. For the Porsches they have had these IBSs on the Cars I think since 2013. They only went with the Plug-In proprietary type for thier Lithium Battery since the Lithium Battery that A123 System makes for them offers this system via the internal circuit board on the battery. So I think it will just be about swapping out the battery, but we have not tested for this so I will leave this as my opinion for this point in time until we test in some Cars and prove out my theory.
(2) Figure out how to register the replacement battery.
There are several threads on Rennlist about this, as well, this process is required in BMWs and some other cars.. The background on this is that the Cars computer is supposed to have the data and age of the battery and change its charging curve/profile as the battery ages, and also make sure you are putting a compatible battery in. But honestly I think its a bit of corporate smoke and mirrors to make sure the Customer is using Batteries that are from companies that are partners with the manufacturers... and that is fair also. But the Battery Registration process on Porsche, BMWs, Audi and other Cars usually requires you input the Battery Information from the Battery such as Battrery Type (AGM, FLA, Lithium etc), then the Amp Hours, then the registration portion is entering Serial Numbers off the Battery itself. There is a Part# and another Serial/Registration# on the battery... and this is the silly part because the exact same batteries are sold with another lable by other companies that do not have these Part or Serial Numbers but they are perfectly fine to use also, but the point being is you can simply input the serial# and part number off another "Porsche" battery such as from the images that Campyspeed posted and it will work fine. So to get to my point you just need a picture of a batteries serial# or even to change the last digit in the Serial# from your original battery in some cases it will work fine. Other guys on Renn were just using the Serial# off an image another guy posted of his battery. So there is no real thing to doing this. You can even use an Autozone Battery and just use the Numbers from another Porsche Battery and it will all work fine for registering the battery.
Last edited by Antigravity; 04-24-2022 at 05:13 PM.
Thanks for the great write up, @Antigravity . Very informative.
I think battery registration shouldn’t be much of a problem.
Regarding the battery sensor: I assumed we would have to use the same sensor as is installed on the new ‘22 Cayennes and perhaps splice a new LIN bus male connector. Are you suggesting that a battery sensor from, say, a Panamera will work? Or are battery sensors generic and I could just buy any sensor from Auto Zone?
You mentioned you would be testing this conversion for the 2019-2021 Cayennes. Perhaps you could also develop an installation kit with the battery sensor and any additional wiring / connectors required for the conversion. That would be a popular cross-sell with your battery. I’d pay money for that!
Thanks for the great write up, @Antigravity . Very informative.
I think battery registration shouldn’t be much of a problem.
Regarding the battery sensor: I assumed we would have to use the same sensor as is installed on the new ‘22 Cayennes and perhaps splice a new LIN bus male connector. Are you suggesting that a battery sensor from, say, a Panamera will work? Or are battery sensors generic and I could just buy any sensor from Auto Zone?
You mentioned you would be testing this conversion for the 2019-2021 Cayennes. Perhaps you could also develop an installation kit with the battery sensor and any additional wiring / connectors required for the conversion. That would be a popular cross-sell with your battery. I’d pay money for that!
Ok I think I made a big error in understanding what you were saying. But I think I get what you are saying now. I believe you are saying IF you have a Lithium Battery version Cayenne currently, then how would you attach the Plug-In from your Lithium Battery so you can go to an AGM or aftermarket Lithium battery.... But I was thinking you had the AGM Style of IBS Connector that Campy was showing which was already set up for an AGM use.
So in Campy's type of set up yes you could just swap the battery to Lithium since it is set up for AGM already. I think you already understood that.
But unfortunately I don't know if that Linbus Connector from the Porsche Lithium Battery is the same plug-in as the one on the newer AGM equipped Cayenne Campy just got. So being blunt I don't know if they read the data the same... meaning how the Lithium Battery puts out its data pointsvia its Linbus protocol, vs how the AGM systems IBS protocol is set up to transmit the data. So unfortunately I have no answer at all. It would be great if you could simply buy the cable set up for the AGM Battery from Porsche in the future and swap that out... we've seen that done on some BMWs by a company we work with called European Auto Source in California. but I can't say that would work on a Porsche, but I will ask them what they did and see if its relevant. I doubt Porsche would make and overly complex system to swap from the Lithium to the AGM. I assume the factory must have a simple solution like a wire harness. But honestly I don't want to say that yet since I don't. I'll try to keep looking into this.
But for those of you interested maybe you can post some more pics of your Lithium Battery set up in the Cayenne with the Negative and Positive Posts shown, like below, but open up the Positive cover so we can see if it exactly the same in regards to the Lead vs Lithium connections and we can see what is different. and start to analyze if the wiring goes to a similar connection point that can swapped or disconnected close by.
04-21-2022, 06:43 PM
2022 Cayenne Battery
