2019 Cayenne Lithium battery failure
08-10-2023, 01:42 AM
#31
A base Cayenne having a $3,000 battery that goes bad in 4 years is actually ridiculous. Pre-owned purchasers are going to be in for a big shock when they buy the car when it's 7-8 years old.
Mine is a 2019 with 120,000KM when the low battery light came on. Works perfectly fine though. Dealer did not offer a software upgrade, just said need to change it.
Mine is a 2019 with 120,000KM when the low battery light came on. Works perfectly fine though. Dealer did not offer a software upgrade, just said need to change it.
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chassis (08-10-2023)
08-10-2023, 01:56 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
LIFEPo4 batteries don't work well with simple voltage sense charging. In other words, the change in charge voltage as noted across the terminals (at a specified constant current) between 25% and 80% SoC is very small, unlike AGM and Flooded types. Internal resistance is also very low (good) so you can hit a 100 AHr battery with 50 amps and depending on SoC at the start, very little terminal voltage increase will be noted.
The other way to determine SoH is with current x time parameters (integrating current over time). This requires a very accurate current shunt, a good time base, and data sampling of the mV across the shunt with enough precision to determine when a given number of amp-hours has been replaced.
Our AGM batteries are most likely charged with simple voltage sensing across the battery leads being fed back to the field (or rotor) current in the alternator.
How did Porsche implement this in their hybrid lines ? I don't know.
The other way to determine SoH is with current x time parameters (integrating current over time). This requires a very accurate current shunt, a good time base, and data sampling of the mV across the shunt with enough precision to determine when a given number of amp-hours has been replaced.
Our AGM batteries are most likely charged with simple voltage sensing across the battery leads being fed back to the field (or rotor) current in the alternator.
How did Porsche implement this in their hybrid lines ? I don't know.
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chassis (08-10-2023)
08-10-2023, 02:03 PM
#33
A base Cayenne having a $3,000 battery that goes bad in 4 years is actually ridiculous. Pre-owned purchasers are going to be in for a big shock when they buy the car when it's 7-8 years old.
Mine is a 2019 with 120,000KM when the low battery light came on. Works perfectly fine though. Dealer did not offer a software upgrade, just said need to change it.
Mine is a 2019 with 120,000KM when the low battery light came on. Works perfectly fine though. Dealer did not offer a software upgrade, just said need to change it.
08-10-2023, 03:08 PM
#34
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Porsche and their "customer service" are a bunch of cynicals. Drive a minimum or keep it plugged. Well, the Porsche branded charger dropped connection (directly to the engine mounts as per the manual) between hours or 2 days. The car stayed at the stealership for 2 MONTHS and they could not resolve it.
Solution? Bought me an aftermarket charger that doesn't drop like the Porsche branded one.
Cynical because they alleged initially that I was using an aftermarket charger and that's why the battery failed. I had to physically show them the Porsche charger to get the battery replaced under warranty and then later they say it's ok to ignore the warranty manual. If you talk to PCNA customer disservice they say the manual and warranty book are just for reference.
Beemers and mercs have their problems but I don't recall being treated like a bandit when claiming warranty repairs. That's Porsches fault with their policy of paying when there's a code or a picture and making everything else difficult.
Solution? Bought me an aftermarket charger that doesn't drop like the Porsche branded one.
Cynical because they alleged initially that I was using an aftermarket charger and that's why the battery failed. I had to physically show them the Porsche charger to get the battery replaced under warranty and then later they say it's ok to ignore the warranty manual. If you talk to PCNA customer disservice they say the manual and warranty book are just for reference.
Beemers and mercs have their problems but I don't recall being treated like a bandit when claiming warranty repairs. That's Porsches fault with their policy of paying when there's a code or a picture and making everything else difficult.
08-10-2023, 03:55 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Porsche and their "customer service" are a bunch of cynicals. Drive a minimum or keep it plugged. Well, the Porsche branded charger dropped connection (directly to the engine mounts as per the manual) between hours or 2 days. The car stayed at the stealership for 2 MONTHS and they could not resolve it.
Solution? Bought me an aftermarket charger that doesn't drop like the Porsche branded one.
Cynical because they alleged initially that I was using an aftermarket charger and that's why the battery failed. I had to physically show them the Porsche charger to get the battery replaced under warranty and then later they say it's ok to ignore the warranty manual. If you talk to PCNA customer disservice they say the manual and warranty book are just for reference.
Beemers and mercs have their problems but I don't recall being treated like a bandit when claiming warranty repairs. That's Porsches fault with their policy of paying when there's a code or a picture and making everything else difficult.
Solution? Bought me an aftermarket charger that doesn't drop like the Porsche branded one.
Cynical because they alleged initially that I was using an aftermarket charger and that's why the battery failed. I had to physically show them the Porsche charger to get the battery replaced under warranty and then later they say it's ok to ignore the warranty manual. If you talk to PCNA customer disservice they say the manual and warranty book are just for reference.
Beemers and mercs have their problems but I don't recall being treated like a bandit when claiming warranty repairs. That's Porsches fault with their policy of paying when there's a code or a picture and making everything else difficult.
MB is bottom of the barrel for customer support. Head over to mbworld for the latest.
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chassis (08-11-2023)
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bpcmd (03-23-2024)
08-11-2023, 01:28 AM
#38
Interesting, $2,000:
https://www.oemvehicleparts.com/oem-...ry-9y0915105qy
it requires programming though I imagine.
https://www.oemvehicleparts.com/oem-...ry-9y0915105qy
it requires programming though I imagine.
Most shops can easily do it, Just make sure you get a photo of the serial number and battery model from the top of the battery.
The goal is that older batteries receive a larger charge to compensate its age. So after months of installing a new battery and not programming it, the battery may get damaged because of overcharging it.
Most scanners that do battery registration will have another option for Lithium-Ion batteries. That's it. The procedure is the same as AGM, GEL, or any other battery that is installed in a vehicke with a battery management system.
Many VW, BMW Porsche etc.. even before 2009, need to have the battery registered in the same way.
A very simple procedure supportef by most decent scanners.
Below is a menu photo showing the Lithium option in addition to the AGM, GEL, etc. options.
I'll make a YouTube video of how easy it is to replace the 2019 Porsche Cayenne S, when it comes time to replace it. So far, it still goes strong.
Those people that got the Porsche battery softwate update should check what is the battery install history/mileage to see if there is any anomaly in that information. You will need a scanner to get that info. If for some reason, the battery information is set to be older (can't see how, but profitable bugs happen-maybe the new battery management software update is overcharging the batteries.), then the battery will get damage by being overcharged and the battery will die within months.
Remember that if you use another brand of battery, if the model or serial number of digits don't match, then use spaces to replace the missing digits, for any type of battery.
Ssems to me, or in Canada one can get the 9Y0 Lithium-Ion batteries in stock?
https://www.oemvehicleparts.com/search?search_str=Lithium-Ion+battery
Or, California for $1,846.22:
https://www.europeanoempartsdirect.com/oem-parts/porsche-battery-9y0915105qy
Last edited by PorscheACC; 08-11-2023 at 01:53 AM.
08-11-2023, 02:17 PM
#39
Yeah, that is interesting. I am familiar with AGM batteries when you replace them there is a programming procedure to register in the new battery.
I just have no idea what's required with these newer batteries and if it's remarkably different than the old way.
I just have no idea what's required with these newer batteries and if it's remarkably different than the old way.
11-07-2023, 12:46 PM
#40
I do not understand why Porsche for cars with ICE and Lithium batteries does not incorporate battery charge status (0-100%) into PCM system. Every time you power up the electricity in the car before starting up the engine, one should be able to see the state of battery charge. In addition, the software built into the battery should control the extent of battery discharge. However, I don't believe this would necessarily help in practical terms for a variety of reasons as people's driving habits vary, unless the extent of remaining charge is set quite high before the battery shuts-off, let's say 40% (you still need to open the car and start the engine). It would probably solve a lot of issues with a small auxiliary battery as a backup to open and start the car. Outside the car industry, this is how modern boats are setup-starting batteries are all AGM, whereas auxiliary "house" batteries are LiFePO4 (speaking from experience with Mastervolt) and control panels provide you with a clear view of the state of charge, even remotely when so equipped. All my Porsches are on CTEK daily, and I've been changing my AGM batteries every 7 years as a rule of thumb.
11-07-2023, 01:06 PM
#41
I do not understand why Porsche for cars with ICE and Lithium batteries does not incorporate battery charge status (0-100%) into PCM system. Every time you power up the electricity in the car before starting up the engine, one should be able to see the state of battery charge. In addition, the software built into the battery should control the extent of battery discharge. However, I don't believe this would necessarily help in practical terms for a variety of reasons as people's driving habits vary, unless the extent of remaining charge is set quite high before the battery shuts-off, let's say 40% (you still need to open the car and start the engine). It would probably solve a lot of issues with a small auxiliary battery as a backup to open and start the car. Outside the car industry, this is how modern boats are setup-starting batteries are all AGM, whereas auxiliary "house" batteries are LiFePO4 (speaking from experience with Mastervolt) and control panels provide you with a clear view of the state of charge, even remotely when so equipped. All my Porsches are on CTEK daily, and I've been changing my AGM batteries every 7 years as a rule of thumb.
So, I am not surprised by that from Porsche..
11-07-2023, 01:15 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
i started asking questions about this battery over here
https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1299...n-battery.html
but I think this would also be a good place to try and get answers.
TLDR: LiFePO4 has a minimum charging temperature (in all data sheets I've ever read) of freezing (0C / 32F). Seeing as this battery doesn't have any kind of active thermal management(AFAIK?), how is Porsche getting away with using it as a starting battery? Obviously people operate their SUV's in cold weather. Typically you start the engine and the alternator start sending charge into the battery. So we aren't just talking stationary charging. Maybe there is something clever going on with this battery/setup, or maybe something less optimal?
https://rennlist.com/forums/992/1299...n-battery.html
but I think this would also be a good place to try and get answers.
TLDR: LiFePO4 has a minimum charging temperature (in all data sheets I've ever read) of freezing (0C / 32F). Seeing as this battery doesn't have any kind of active thermal management(AFAIK?), how is Porsche getting away with using it as a starting battery? Obviously people operate their SUV's in cold weather. Typically you start the engine and the alternator start sending charge into the battery. So we aren't just talking stationary charging. Maybe there is something clever going on with this battery/setup, or maybe something less optimal?
Last edited by Mike818; 11-07-2023 at 01:19 PM.
01-15-2024, 03:17 PM
#43
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I had to learn a lot about those faulty LGChem batteries, and thought I'd share simple solution I used. I'm sure it's mentioned here in many different threads... But I would like to iterate - that if your battery was completely dead after long time with no use/charge - it's not dead. It's just needs to be waken up, and faulty BMS on LG Chem unit will not do it on it's own.
Short version first:
Symptoms : 2019 Cayenne, 50K miles, 4.5 years old. Came back from the trip to airport parking lot - and the car is dead. Michigan winter, temps below freezing, about 2 weeks... I guess it was the time for that faulty LG Chem to go dead. Battery voltage reads 0.
Cause: the faulty BMS (Battery Management System) on the LG Chem LiFePO battery goes into protection mode when the voltage goes below some threshold (10v?). It physically disconnects the battery terminal "to protect the battery". It than supposed to connect it back when the BMS feels the proper charging device attached. BUT IT DOESN'T!!! So for all intents and purposes the battery is dead, and usually thrown away and replaced with a new $2 200 LiFePO battery at the dealer.
Solution: Send the battery (or remove and send BMS) to the shop in Mineola, where they reset the internals to connect the terminal back (as battery BMS supposed to do automatically, but does not).
Read on here for longer version https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...l#post19220245
Short version first:
Symptoms : 2019 Cayenne, 50K miles, 4.5 years old. Came back from the trip to airport parking lot - and the car is dead. Michigan winter, temps below freezing, about 2 weeks... I guess it was the time for that faulty LG Chem to go dead. Battery voltage reads 0.
Cause: the faulty BMS (Battery Management System) on the LG Chem LiFePO battery goes into protection mode when the voltage goes below some threshold (10v?). It physically disconnects the battery terminal "to protect the battery". It than supposed to connect it back when the BMS feels the proper charging device attached. BUT IT DOESN'T!!! So for all intents and purposes the battery is dead, and usually thrown away and replaced with a new $2 200 LiFePO battery at the dealer.
Solution: Send the battery (or remove and send BMS) to the shop in Mineola, where they reset the internals to connect the terminal back (as battery BMS supposed to do automatically, but does not).
Read on here for longer version https://rennlist.com/forums/cayenne-...l#post19220245
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T-Design9 : Mods and ergonomic accessories bespoke designed for Porsche cars
Memory Modules : remember SC **** settings; A/S/S, PSE, Spoiler, Sport/+ buttons
Phone Mounts : keep your phone up and close and charged
Cupdholders, Sunglass Holsters and more at T-Design9.com
03-20-2024, 07:47 AM
#44
Possible final solution
This is the second time this problem has occurred to me in a year! The first time there was a recall from the Porsche dealer to resolve the matter, but this time they refused to do it on the grounds that it had already been done to me once. The principle of the battery alarm is indeed caused by a design flaw in the PCM module. I am not sure if they did it on purpose cuz replacing the battery with a new one does not mean that this error will not happen again. And it will force me to buy a new battery again and again as long as I have a Cayenne.
Being an engineer I decided to find the solution elsewhere. Replacing lithium batteries with AGM lead-acid lithium batteries is theoretically a feasible solution. Unfortunately, this is a new solution and lacks programming tools, and has not been verified over time. I guess its confidence comes from the new Cayenne in 2024 (the new Cayenne is replaced with an ordinary battery).
Here is the best part. I unexpectedly discovered in China that they seem to have successfully implemented this modification solution and marketed it on a large scale! What is needed is a modified negative lead, and an autoprogrammer to overwrite the code. I tried my best to order these two items from China half month ago, and according to the express delivery records, they are estimated to be delivered tomorrow.
I plan to send these two things to the body shop that I am familiar with to see if they can really be modified successfully.
If it does work out, I'll have fixed the whole thing for just a few hundred bucks! And will get rid of this stupid battery design once and for all! Coincidentally, I am working for an international trading company. I reported this situation to my superior. If there are no legal problems, it is possible that we can introduce this technology and distribute it to auto body shops across the United States. I even suggested that engineers in China to develop a personal version so that people could solve the problem in their own homes. Guess what? They said they would give it a try xd
Being an engineer I decided to find the solution elsewhere. Replacing lithium batteries with AGM lead-acid lithium batteries is theoretically a feasible solution. Unfortunately, this is a new solution and lacks programming tools, and has not been verified over time. I guess its confidence comes from the new Cayenne in 2024 (the new Cayenne is replaced with an ordinary battery).
Here is the best part. I unexpectedly discovered in China that they seem to have successfully implemented this modification solution and marketed it on a large scale! What is needed is a modified negative lead, and an autoprogrammer to overwrite the code. I tried my best to order these two items from China half month ago, and according to the express delivery records, they are estimated to be delivered tomorrow.
I plan to send these two things to the body shop that I am familiar with to see if they can really be modified successfully.
If it does work out, I'll have fixed the whole thing for just a few hundred bucks! And will get rid of this stupid battery design once and for all! Coincidentally, I am working for an international trading company. I reported this situation to my superior. If there are no legal problems, it is possible that we can introduce this technology and distribute it to auto body shops across the United States. I even suggested that engineers in China to develop a personal version so that people could solve the problem in their own homes. Guess what? They said they would give it a try xd
03-20-2024, 11:50 AM
#45
This is the second time this problem has occurred to me in a year! The first time there was a recall from the Porsche dealer to resolve the matter, but this time they refused to do it on the grounds that it had already been done to me once. The principle of the battery alarm is indeed caused by a design flaw in the PCM module. I am not sure if they did it on purpose cuz replacing the battery with a new one does not mean that this error will not happen again. And it will force me to buy a new battery again and again as long as I have a Cayenne.
Being an engineer I decided to find the solution elsewhere. Replacing lithium batteries with AGM lead-acid lithium batteries is theoretically a feasible solution. Unfortunately, this is a new solution and lacks programming tools, and has not been verified over time. I guess its confidence comes from the new Cayenne in 2024 (the new Cayenne is replaced with an ordinary battery).
Here is the best part. I unexpectedly discovered in China that they seem to have successfully implemented this modification solution and marketed it on a large scale! What is needed is a modified negative lead, and an autoprogrammer to overwrite the code. I tried my best to order these two items from China half month ago, and according to the express delivery records, they are estimated to be delivered tomorrow.
I plan to send these two things to the body shop that I am familiar with to see if they can really be modified successfully.
If it does work out, I'll have fixed the whole thing for just a few hundred bucks! And will get rid of this stupid battery design once and for all! Coincidentally, I am working for an international trading company. I reported this situation to my superior. If there are no legal problems, it is possible that we can introduce this technology and distribute it to auto body shops across the United States. I even suggested that engineers in China to develop a personal version so that people could solve the problem in their own homes. Guess what? They said they would give it a try xd
Being an engineer I decided to find the solution elsewhere. Replacing lithium batteries with AGM lead-acid lithium batteries is theoretically a feasible solution. Unfortunately, this is a new solution and lacks programming tools, and has not been verified over time. I guess its confidence comes from the new Cayenne in 2024 (the new Cayenne is replaced with an ordinary battery).
Here is the best part. I unexpectedly discovered in China that they seem to have successfully implemented this modification solution and marketed it on a large scale! What is needed is a modified negative lead, and an autoprogrammer to overwrite the code. I tried my best to order these two items from China half month ago, and according to the express delivery records, they are estimated to be delivered tomorrow.
I plan to send these two things to the body shop that I am familiar with to see if they can really be modified successfully.
If it does work out, I'll have fixed the whole thing for just a few hundred bucks! And will get rid of this stupid battery design once and for all! Coincidentally, I am working for an international trading company. I reported this situation to my superior. If there are no legal problems, it is possible that we can introduce this technology and distribute it to auto body shops across the United States. I even suggested that engineers in China to develop a personal version so that people could solve the problem in their own homes. Guess what? They said they would give it a try xd
Not to mention Porsche's greedy multi-thousand dollar profiteering on defective battery parts, labor, and programming..
Keep us posted. I will be installing that solution as soon as it is available..
best regards..