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Contrary to appearances, this shouldn't be difficult to determine. If the engine fails as a result of flooding after floating in a puddle, the failure occurs immediately. The engine simply sucks in water instead of air, and since the water does not compress in the cylinder, the engine explodes and the connecting rods bend or crack.
However, the ingress of coolant may not cause an immediate failure. The coolant mixes with the oil and slowly damages the engine, causing it to stop or even explode.
I would order an analysis of the fluid found in the oil pan. If it turns out that it is coolant, the matter is simple. However, if it turns out to be clean water, the case will be much more difficult to win.
I like watching Rufford Ford fails, just like you described.
If the OP did not drove over water, and was just driving on the highway, he should definitely go the legal way, after what Porsche stated blaming him.
No innocent vehicle owner wants to be suckered and forced to a large economic loss by a Porsche dealer, or Porsche, that wants to hide a poorly built engine that failed catastrophically..
I would contact a good lawyer and will query him if he needs to get the vehicle out of the dealer ASAP..
If the OP did not drove over water, and was just driving on the highway, he should definitely go the legal way, after what Porsche stated blaming him.
No innocent vehicle owner wants to be suckered and forced to a large economic loss by a Porsche dealer, or Porsche, that wants to hide a poorly built engine that failed catastrophically..
I would contact a good lawyer and will query him if he needs to get the vehicle out of the dealer ASAP..
If it turns out that it is pure water and not coolant, it will be very difficult to win the case. Additionally, as OP writes, the air filter was wet. This water came from somewhere.It is impossible for the engine to suck in water due to normal highway driving in the rain. Only driving at high speed into a deep puddle and accumulating water in front of the car's hood can cause water to be sucked in.
If it turns out that it is pure water and not coolant, it will be very difficult to win the case. Additionally, as OP writes, the air filter was wet. This water came from somewhere.It is impossible for the engine to suck in water due to normal highway driving in the rain. Only driving at high speed into a deep puddle and accumulating water in front of the car's hood can cause water to be sucked in.
9Y0 Cayenne air inlet is about 32 inches above the roadway, while 971 Panamera's is about 18 inches above it.
I don't think rain can fall hard enough to get under the top lip of the central grill air cutout on the Cayenne; it would be raining so hard that one would have to pull over (not able to see ahead with wipers at full speed).
Deep puddle geometry also hard to envision. First there is a deep hole, then front end of the truck is brought over water surface that has over 3 feet of depth, then front wheels fall into hole, then body right behind front wheels impacts the ledge, then stuck. Front rockers are only 9 inches above the roadway in normal stance.
To get fresh water into air filter and then into engine in an amount sufficient to cause this amount of damage would be like driving the truck forward down a boat launch ramp into the water directly.
Sounds to like someone in service dept didn't torque an oil drain plug. If engine can't hold water, its because the cylinder(s) have cracks (into water jacket) and or the head gasket is blown or the head has a crack.
Not sure what your background is, but here is the Audi document on the EA389 engine.
If it turns out that it is pure water and not coolant, it will be very difficult to win the case. Additionally, as OP writes, the air filter was wet. This water came from somewhere.It is impossible for the engine to suck in water due to normal highway driving in the rain. Only driving at high speed into a deep puddle and accumulating water in front of the car's hood can cause water to be sucked in.
OP knows what is the truth, one way or another..
If he is telling the truth, then he, the lawyers, and the post-morten engine expert can find what happened and follow the lehal process accordingly..
If he is not telling the truth, then nothing good will come from it for him..
Honest people should not be scammed, and crooked people should pay the consequences, in my book..
Again, only the OP knows what really happened, and therefore, what action to follow..
Antifreeze in our vehicles are 50/50 antifreeze and water.. Water will evaporate when exposed on hot engine/exhaust surfaces, which can condensate on colder areas.
An post-mortem engine expert can determine what kind of catastrophic failure the engine had, the type of liquids impact, and what the pattern of internal failure and liquid pattern will mean legally..
The truth should become clear at the end, and who should pay for the damages..
That's what I would do anyway, if that happened to me, and I knew I was not at fault..
Just thinking about all of this is expensive. And I’m not the one footing the bill.
If it were I, I would, as someone above stated, talk to the dealer to see how much it costs to make this go away. A trade-in with goodwill discount some tears etc. I just dont see this ending well, or cheap. Take that cost and compare it to what a lawyer will bill to see this to conclusion, plus all the experts, forensics etc. Then use that to make a decision. Porsches are expensive to maintain even when just parked in the garage, it could cost you $3200 for a failed battery.
So first of all, the suggestion that you could milkshake the oil by ingesting water through the intake is laughable. You need a huge volume of water to do that, like liters of it. The water would have to go in the intake, through the turbo, intercooler, intake manifold... which is all reasonable if you submerge the intake... but then it goes into the cylinders where it would have to make it passed the rings and then get circulated with the oil. There's no way that much water is going through the ring gaps. As soon as the water goes in the cylinder, the piston stops (and other things break). I'm not even sure if water makes the milkshake or if that's a glycol effect. Either way you can buy a test kit for glycol in oil. Do that and if there is any glycol in the oil, there's proof that it's not "fresh water".
You could also just fill up the cooling system and open the oil drain plug, pressurize the coolant if needed and water will pour out the oil drain. Either of these tests will prove that coolant and oil mixed and not "fresh" water.
I think I will write again because not everyone understands that it is quite easy to distinguish water from pink coolant containing glycol. Especially since if the water component of the coolant evaporates under the influence of temperature, thick, strongly pink glycol will remain.
This is a really very easy fault to diagnose. I have seen several engines that have sucked in water through the intake system and whose SUV owners believed that no water was a threat to them.
I'm not saying this happened to the OP, but I am saying that if it is proven that the failure was caused by the water, it will be difficult to convince Porsche to repair the car at their expense.
And here are some brave drivers also in their high-slung SUVs:
Edit: One more thought occurred to me. If it was clean water, it would be worth removing the plastic cover over the radiators and checking whether the intake air vanes are properly installed at the beginning of the intake system. If they are missing or incorrectly installed, the engine could have sucked in water from the rain (like a vacuum cleaner) and gradually accumulated it in the oil pan. Then the failure would occur only after some time.
This how it should look:
Edit: One more thought occurred to me. If it was clean water, it would be worth removing the plastic cover over the radiators and checking whether the intake air vanes are properly installed at the beginning of the intake system. If they are missing or incorrectly installed, the engine could have sucked in water from the rain (like a vacuum cleaner) and gradually accumulated it in the oil pan. Then the failure would occur only after some time.
How would it get to the oil pan? Through the combustion chamber?
How would it get to the oil pan? Through the combustion chamber?
If partial hydrolock cracked a cylinder wall (I would demand to see a borescope of each cylinder if I were the OP), then the water jacket is breached, and then it requires either running down past the rings or a cracked (cast) piston, with water sitting on top of it, which it will run through and fill the crankcase.
There are forensics in play here, and a ton of money (direct and indirect costs), and engine investigations should not be done only by one side of this issue, if there are claims already made (by one side) that the owner does not know how to own and operate a vehicle.
How would it get to the oil pan? Through the combustion chamber?
It's easy. The intake of water may have caused one or more of the connecting rods to bend or crack because the pistons compressed water instead of air. Thus, the entire combustion chamber expanded and the still-running engine freely sucked water into the crank chamber. Look at the OP's description. The failure occurred gradually.
Edit: But I still make a reservation: I do not know whether the failure was caused by water or coolant.
It's easy. The intake of water may have caused one or more of the connecting rods to bend or crack because the pistons compressed water instead of air. Thus, the entire combustion chamber expanded and the still-running engine freely sucked water into the crank chamber. Look at the OP's description. The failure occurred gradually.
Edit: But I still make a reservation: I do not know whether the failure was caused by water or coolant.
Sorry, I was responding to your rainwater theory. Hydrolock for sure that breaks a cylinder would do it, but in that case the engine stops immediately. For hydrolock to happen, the intake needs to be submerged. The vacuum rainwater theory would never suck up enough water to hydrolock an engine. If the engine hydrolocks, it will drip water into the oil, but it won't make a milkshake.
the dealer still has not sent me any of the videos or pictures during their investigation. And when I kept asking if there was any other way this could have happened, they implied no. I have also been asking for the fluids to be tested or provided a sample of the fluid since Monday.
I am not sure how it works, but initially the dealer I bought from said their hands were tied if the claim was submitted and denied. Based on my visit, it sounds like the dealer the car is at didn’t even submit anything yet because they assumed it would get denied immediately. I’m going to try talking to the dealer in PA who sold me the car to see if they’d be more amenable to any resolution. The service manager there sounded more reasonable and brought up some of the points mentioned in this thread.
I’ve escalated this to PCNA to make my case to them so will see how that goes.
the owner of a dealership(wife of a client) did recommend me to involve my insurance so that they’d open an investigation to determine root cause of failure.
I get that continued driving with the engine overheating lights is not good, but I did not have a safe place to pull over. On this vein, what happens to the antifreeze mixture if engine temps get thru the roof? I guess I’m curious as to what happens at or past the boiling point of the 50/50 mix. When everything boils/steams and there’s nowhere for it to go, I’d think that the antifreeze/coolant would end up everywhere.
I’m adamant in my 20 days of ownership I did not drive it in any rain or puddles, always garaged. I also hope the car logs the timing of errors, speed, and hopefully GPS.
In any case, will wait to see what PCNA does (if anything)
11-10-2023, 01:58 PM
