EVO: Panamera Turbo v Quattroporte S v Jaguar XFR

[pcar964]

Originally Posted by Meister Fahrer

Well, we can tell you're just a delusional hater from your avatar....

If you think my avatar makes ME delusional, then old man, you're living in La La Land.

[Slimwear]

Originally Posted by W8MM

There's an awful lot of hyperventilating flying around on message boards from people who haven't had any personal experience with a real, live Panamera. The authors of EVO are welcome to their opinion, but my seat time in the Panamera wasn't disappointing in any way. It makes me wonder what sort of driving they did that I didn't do to come by their observations. Or, whether they and I are just different in some fundamental way?

Why, I wonder, do the vast majority of posters on this board who have actually taken the opportunity to drive a Panamera tell such glowing stories, while those who have not driven one are so prone to despondent pessimism?

Something's not quite right with the data here. Maybe the negative predisposition comes from those who would never be part of the market for a Panamera, no matter what its virtues?

The Panamera is plenty engaging and involving for me. I plan to enjoy the heck out of it when mine arrives at the dealer in a few months.

The magazine review is from people with "personal experience with a real live Panamera" testing the car with far more freedom to put it through it's paces then anyone on this message board. I respect their opinion as it relates to comparing it to other cars in its class and feel they have resource and opportunity that posters of this board do not.

As a contrasting view, the most recent Road & Track, complete with a Panamera roadtest, doesn't contain a negative word about performance anywhere, they love it. They did remark that "to a person, we can't embrace the Panamera's ungainly roof and awkward slope of its hatch, we draw the line at uneasy acceptance". Nothing else is remotely negative in the whole review.

I'll reserve my judgement for my roadtest but I don't think we can discredit others for their opinion. This includes the glowing reviews on this board but I admit I tend to keep them in context as this IS a Panamera board and may not be the best place for unbiased opinions.

Anyway we look at it, it's a great time to be a car enthusiast!

[W8MM]

Originally Posted by Slimwear

The magazine review is from people with "personal experience with a real live Panamera" testing the car with far more freedom to put it through it's paces then anyone on this message board.

That's why I asked if there was some fundamental difference between their sensitivities and mine.
Second, you might be surprised what sort of liberties are taken by some posters here.

I respect their opinion as it relates to comparing it to other cars in its class and feel they have resource and opportunity that posters of this board do not.

Resources? Sure. They get press cars from manufacturers to flog around and get paid by EVO to tell about it. Some of our posters get press cars and flog them in their spare time. The only substantive difference I see is the lack of instrumentation by the board posters.

As a contrasting view, the most recent Road & Track, complete with a Panamera roadtest, doesn't contain a negative word about performance anywhere, they love it. They did remark that "to a person, we can't embrace the Panamera's ungainly roof and awkward slope of its hatch, we draw the line at uneasy acceptance". Nothing else is remotely negative in the whole review.

Yes, exactly.

So, why did that story get so much less play on the boards than the stories with more negative comments, like this story in EVO? Could it be that some of the more vocal posters are looking for reinforcement of their negative predispositions towards the whole idea of a 4-door, expensive, Porsche and prefer to ignore all else?

I'll reserve my judgment for my roadtest but I don't think we can discredit others for their opinion. This includes the glowing reviews on this board but I admit I tend to keep them in context as this IS a Panamera board and may not be the best place for unbiased opinions.

Anyway we look at it, it's a great time to be a car enthusiast!

Indeed it is!

I'm anxious to know what your reactions are after your test drive. Please give us a detailed report.

[W8MM]

Originally Posted by Bill P.

I wonder what EVO's advertising income from the three manufactures is?

You asked what I was wondering.

I have had some "interesting" experiences with magazine reviewers over the years that made me wary of stories with surprising endings.

A different question that could be asked is whether any of the writers of this story have extra-curricular tie-ups as consultants for car companies or car company business affiliates like racing operations or advertising agencies. Auto writers have to eat and publishing budgets get tighter all the time.

I'm not saying they do, just wondering.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by pcar964

If you think my avatar makes ME delusional, then old man, you're living in La La Land.

Well it may have been what you said too...

Clearly there have been many Porsche models before that broke away from the previous successful strategy... some were hated at the time by the old guard though time changed that - (I recall the 911 was initially viewed this way by the 356 crowd...) some may still be hated...

It doesn't really make any difference what any of us think... if Porsche sells it really is a "Real Porsche"...

While individuals may have platform preferences - Porsche just wants to make money and extend their brand where they think it can makes sense (or cents to be more precise).

In order to keep the company healthy, and able to effectively support the platforms you do love (speading technology development costs over a larger base) it seems we should embrace whatever acheives that end. As part of VW its probably even more important to be hugely profitable in order to stay 'effectively independant'..

Alan

[tommytomaso]

Originally Posted by Slimwear

I understand the message that pcar964 is trying to get across with his post.

Porsche has built an incredible reputation making cars with certain characteristics and I don’t see the Panamera following any of them. This doesn’t mean that it’s not a great car, it appears to be spectacular. I think the other cars in this comparison are great too but that doesn’t mean I would want them associated with Porsche either. Does anyone associate Jaguar with sports cars anymore? They used to be and I wonder if Porsche is going down the same path.

The real killer for me is that last quote: “The Panamera doesn’t engage, inform or involve in the way that the Jaguar and Maserati do”. Does this sound like a Porsche? They now build cars that don’t provide the driver experience of a 2010 Jaguar and weighs more? Really?

I can’t wait to see one in person (Tuesday night) and I’ll give it a drive and root it on against the competition but it does worry me for the brand.


Emery

I dont seem to have the idea that Porsche is just a sportscar manafacturer, thier not. what they are is a design company that just happens to design "sport" in products mostly cars. heck thier first designs were TANKS...how far is that from what they do now? after the war they designed..or redesigned the VW into a race car (thier was a design job for an italian race car with a 750cc motor thats listed as one of the best looking sportscars of its time,,just cant remember its name "Crisstina" SP?i think)
So why is it some get so pissy that they designed something thats not thier cup of tea ...Heck 40yrs from now Porsche might be producing thier own line of personal sport Spaceshuttles.

[Tacet-Conundrum]

Originally Posted by tommytomaso

I dont seem to have the idea that Porsche is just a sportscar manafacturer, thier not. what they are is a design company that just happens to design "sport" in products mostly cars. heck thier first designs were TANKS...how far is that from what they do now? after the war they designed..or redesigned the VW into a race car (thier was a design job for an italian race car with a 750cc motor thats listed as one of the best looking sportscars of its time,,just cant remember its name "Crisstina" SP?i think)
So why is it some get so pissy that they designed something thats not thier cup of tea ...Heck 40yrs from now Porsche might be producing thier own line of personal sport Spaceshuttles.

Don't forget that Harley Davidson went to Porsche to help them with their new V-Rod engine. Think it was because Porsche went from Air-Cooler to Water-Cooled like Harley did with their V-Rod.

[Orangebubblegum]

Originally Posted by tommytomaso

I dont seem to have the idea that Porsche is just a sportscar manafacturer, thier not. what they are is a design company that just happens to design "sport" in products mostly cars. heck thier first designs were TANKS...how far is that from what they do now? after the war they designed..or redesigned the VW into a race car (thier was a design job for an italian race car with a 750cc motor thats listed as one of the best looking sportscars of its time,,just cant remember its name "Crisstina" SP?i think)
So why is it some get so pissy that they designed something thats not thier cup of tea ...Heck 40yrs from now Porsche might be producing thier own line of personal sport Spaceshuttles.

Purists grew up drooling over water-cooled Porsches, so any deviation is a negative to them. Purists exist in every industry. Some of them remind me of milkmen that still deliver on horses.

But for every purist theres always purer purist. Im sure theres someone out there with a Porsche tank and aircooled tractor complaining about how Porsche should go back to the good old days.

[tommytomaso]

Originally Posted by Orangebubblegum

Purists grew up drooling over water-cooled Porsches, so any deviation is a negative to them. Purists exist in every industry. Some of them remind me of milkmen that still deliver on horses.

But for every purist theres always purer purist. Im sure theres someone out there with a Porsche tank and aircooled tractor complaining about how Porsche should go back to the good old days.

[brendorenn]

Originally Posted by pcar964

Why are people so caught up in paper statistics? The clear message here is that the panamera is big, fat, ugly, offers an uninvolving and sterile driving experience, and has no business being called a Porsche. Again I offer the example of dropping a 500 cubic inch V8 in a Ford Taurus - it DOES NOT MAKE IT A SPORTSCAR just because it's fast. And it certainly doesn't make it a Porsche in the same spirit as the great cars that built the Porsche heritage over the past 50 years. It's a pathetic departure from Porsche's roots, fueled almost solely by Dr. W's insane ego and quest for short-term profits at the expense of the purity of the brand. Porsche will soon realize that as it enters the world of hum-drum automakers, it will start to lose buyers in droves due to brand dilution.

you're not in a happy place, are you? OMG, they updated the 964! the world is over! water cooled, what?! an SUV? oy! sheesh, just don't buy one, or at least, put some intellect into your argument.

[tommytomaso]

Originally Posted by brendorenn

you're not in a happy place, are you? OMG, they updated the 964! the world is over! water cooled, what?! an SUV? oy! sheesh, just don't buy one, or at least, put some intellect into your argument.

and another

[Hacker-Pschorr]

Originally Posted by W8MM

There's an awful lot of hyperventilating flying around on message boards from people who haven't had any personal experience with a real, live Panamera. The authors of EVO are welcome to their opinion, but my seat time in the Panamera wasn't disappointing in any way. It makes me wonder what sort of driving they did that I didn't do to come by their observations. Or, whether they and I are just different in some fundamental way?

Why, I wonder, do the vast majority of posters on this board who have actually taken the opportunity to drive a Panamera tell such glowing stories, while those who have not driven one are so prone to despondent pessimism?

Something's not quite right with the data here. Maybe the negative predisposition comes from those who would never be part of the market for a Panamera, no matter what its virtues?

The Panamera is plenty engaging and involving for me. I plan to enjoy the heck out of it when mine arrives at the dealer in a few months.

How much time have you spent behind the wheel of the Quattroporte & XFR?

[W8MM]

Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr

How much time have you spent behind the wheel of the Quattroporte & XFR?

Exactly none in an XFR and only a little in a previous revision of the Maser.

The subject of uninformed Panamera bashing isn't about how many cars I've driven. Some folks were pointing to the EVO review as verification of their darkest predispositions. I found the story's summation to be perplexing and added my own Panamera driving experience as a reference point.

My comments were intended to be general across lots of posts and reviews. Your question might better ask whether the editors of Car and Driver or Road & Track (that wrote such positive reviews of the Panamera's driving dynamics) have driven an XFR or Q. Do you think they have? The EVO review drew my attention when their conclusions ran counter to the rest of their story.

Let's separate magazine reviews and the predispositions of individual Panamera doubters. I have observations about both.

1) Magazine reviews that have surprising endings that don't add up with the reports from the body of the story leave me wondering -- particularly if the surprise ending is counter to my experience or that of other observers or experts that I trust.

2) Board posts in which new cars are bashed for traits that the poster has no first hand way to experience don't impress many people, except their own echo chamber friends.

[Bluehinder]

The only first hand experience many need is just to look at the car. That's perfectly valid, and an objection to many, despite your continual efforts to play up the car.

These board aren't just for cheerleading, they are for viewpoints, be they positive or negative.

[W8MM]

Originally Posted by Bluehinder

The only first hand experience many need is just to look at the car. That's perfectly valid, and an objection to many, despite your continual efforts to play up the car.

These board aren't just for cheerleading, they are for viewpoints, be they positive or negative.

If one doesn't like the looks of a car, no one is forced to buy it. No problem.

However, I don't think defending a positive first-person opinion of the Panamera can be characterized as some sort of mindless genuflecting. I really don't understand the vitriol aimed at those who like the Panamera just the way Porsche made it.

Let's just agree that I am allowed to buy a Panamera Turbo and enjoy how it drives as well as how it looks, and you're allowed to pass on the opportunity and be glad you did. OK?