analogmike

Doug is right. The problem, I think, was that the club race magazine came out too late, maybe too late for many comments on the rule. So it feels like we were force-fed the change but there was a time to comment. Most comments were positive from what I hear.

I feel bad for Hoosier, they make a great tire and worked hard to make it, and they helped me out a lot while testing out new versions. Their tires are a good product at a great price, now you need to register in GTA class to run them.

Also as was mentioned there are tire distributors that have helped out the club a lot who can't sell the Michelins. I feel bad for them too.

flatsics

I agree Mike, I hope this does not hurt guys like Bob Woodman. Bob and his team do a great job. I give Hoosier enough of my money already, so I don't feel too bad for them

As far as when the rules change proposals were made available, I don't know the exact date.

I have an email from 9/4/2011 asking me a question about the rule change proposals.

Here is a thread on the Racing forum from 9/13/2011 regarding the 2012 Rule changes.

https://rennlist.com/forums/racing-a...or-2012-a.html

KaiB

Doug, I stand corrected. In retrospect, I remember reading about these changes in many places...yer right.

Somehow it just seemed quick and shadowy at 6AM.

I'll retreat to my corner and feel badly about myself now...just sensitive because I'm already saving for a "monster Gamroth" engine in the future and would hate to build it up just to see changes in GT fark the whole thing.

Stuttgart

Rumor is that PCA got a big check (think the value of a cup car) from Michelin. The other tire manufacturers were given only a couple days to match the offer, not enough time get an answer from their home offices in Europe. Again, just the rumor.

I can understand the thought process, most of the cup guys run Michelin's why not get some money for PCA... but given the fact that the overwhelming response on here has been that we aren't interested in a spec tire why move forward? What are we getting out of this deal? Are the racers really interested in increasing the visibility of PCA racing and "taking it to the next level"?

I'm a joe, not a pro and I know it. I race in PCA because its good clean competitive racing, a great weekend hanging out with friends. Everyone knows that "pro racing" is there if you want to write the check. I can't afford it, but for those that can and want more "visibility", there are plenty of options from IMSA cup, ALMS GTC to Grand am GT. Costs are already very high for club racing a cup car, why mandate them higher for the individuals that want to get through 2 weekends on one set non-michelins?

Moderators can we link this discussion to the general racing forum? As stated earlier, this decision may have an effect on the trackside support available to other non-cup racers at the smaller venues.

flatsics

Gamroth/Weiner are gonna make Michelin slicks look cheap. You might be better off with a cup

Good luck with your build.

jrgordonsenior

My gripe has to do with transparency or lack thereof. I understand and even read the blurb in the Club Racing News, a quarterly publication. I don't think many actual racers do read it at least not to the depth required to get to the fine print. My point is that for a change that impactive to be implemented the impacted drivers should have been polled first. Not hard to do, they're listed in the results pages and PCA certainly has eveyone's e-mail addresses. Since PCA doesn't operate a online forum, their information is not widely disseminated. Bruce Boeder posted here frequently during his tenure, a note here on the Racing and Cup forums would have been helpful. Addtionally a e-blast regarding this important subject should have been sent. They send those out frequently announcing events.

If the actual racers wanted and voted for a spec tire then great, it would have my support. That didn't happen. As for the monies received from Michelin, this non-profit orgainzation should disclose the amounts received and their intent for using those funds.....

PS: So what happens if a cup car shows up to race without Michelins? Are they denied entry or DQ'd?....

fstockcarrera

GTA1 or GTA2

tomburdge

Me's think thats a bunch of crapolla.
They should not be charging SC tax on out of state sales.
In NJ during tax time you are obligated to declare your out of state purchases for the prior twelve months and pay the appropriate sales tax on them. Whether you actually do or don't is not a matter for discussion on this forum nor is it the business of that tire dealer in SC.
Now if he physically came to NJ and sold tires track side then of course NJ sales tax would be due and payable as it would be in any other state.

Why should anyone outside the state of SC be obligated to pay their state sales tax vig.... I'm quite certain he they don't pay mine.

This whole situation could technically result in double sales tax be paid by the end user.
This is not good and should be remediated.
The only exception to this might be the Federal Excise Tax.
Tom B.
Chime in and flame me if I'm wrong.

dwe8922

I agree with Phil's comments.

Most concerning is for people like Bob Woodman, who also come to the small races that Michelin doesn't and offer support (imagine having to take slicks to Wal-Mart on Sunday....). Now, there's less incentive for others to make a Michelin alternative, which is really the only form of price protection we have. Michelin is the only cup tire I've ever run, but I don't think this was the right thing to do. And, i don't like it being sold to us under the guise of "cost savings to the racers," or whatever the exact verbage was.

I'm sure PCA must have gotten something pretty significant out of the deal to make the change, but nobody's telling us what that benefit is. This is disappointing. Hopefully it will be used wisely.

early_grayce

No doubt...

Bryan_H

I notice reading through this thread that many of the comments express hope that the spec tire would be Michelin. A trip through the paddock indicates that the vast majority of GT-C 996 and 997 cups are already running Michelin. I am told 90%.

We went through the normal rule making process with normal comment period and normal procedures. This was all standard stuff. We had to wait until the process was complete and the rule officially adopted in late November before we sent out request for bids. We sent those out December 2, 2011 to five manufacturers with a deadline of December 30, 2011 for bids so we could get this done for Sebring. We received bids from most of the manufacturers. The ones who did not bid have asked that we include them next time. A major issue for several suppliers was having enough tires on hand for Sebring and even beyond. We accepted Michelins bid on January 9th and announced it a.s.a.p.

The fine details have yet to be worked out, however, in addition to the usual tire support by other companies at races, there will be JMG/ Michelin tire support at at least 7 races and any other races that have 10 or more GTC-3,4,or 5 Cups signed up two weeks in advance, 4 weeks on the West coast. At the track mounting and balancing will be free for Cups when Michelin is there. When they are not there (smaller races) they will ship tires to the track free. There will be a tire contingency program throughout the year and separately free tires will be awarded at the end of the year. PCA members will receive significant discounts on other Michelin, Wiley and Impact products. Since Michelin was already being used by the vast majority of our Cup Cars the impact on other tire supporters will be minimal. Michelin technical and engineering support will be available to all CTC Cup class drivers.

The fact is the PCA GT-C stock Cup classes are spec classes. They are probably more spec than Spec Boxster or Spec 996 or Spec 944. Spec classes run on Spec tires pretty much everywhere. This is not new ground. Michelin is the tire that the large majority of racers were using last year and that was a consideration in the selection process. This should provide the least disruption to the racers given the short time frame. The next time we should have a longer time frame.

For the last several years Club Racing has been cutting cost at all corners. This deal will allow us to do lots of things that we haven’t been able to afford do in several years. I think you will see vast improvement in Scrutineering and other facets of PCA Racing over the next couple of years as we add staff and improve training. For example, a factory European tech will be at Sebring helping our guys to learn better ways to tech Cup Cars. David Murry Coaching will likely be at multiple events this year. We will build on that start and add more equipment, staff and training. An increase in our travel budget will allow us add Scrutineers and increase Scrutineering at all races.

I am a racer myself. I am a competitive person as most racers are. One thing I expect from a sanctioning body is a level playing field. I think we owe it to our racers to make it as level as possible. This will significantly help that endeavor in our Cup classes and every other class in several ways.

I don’t post much here because frankly I don’t have that kind of free time and much of the stuff is just wrong especially the assumption that everyone who is involved with PCA Club Racing, drivers or staff, reads this list daily. I believe that Rennlist Forums represent a relatively small percentage of the 159 racers who raced Cup Cars with PCA last year. I also note that several of the folks commenting in this thread do not appear to be GTC Cup racers, or even PCA racers. How can you tell for sure? If we went here for input rather than using established formal channels how would we ever separate the wheat from the chaff.

As for transparency, unlike just about everywhere else you can race these days, PCA is not a profitmaking organization. After providing the necessary things that give our sponsors the visibility they need, 100% of the support will go into PCA. That means we can improve the services we provide to the racers. No one in PCA profits from this in any manner.

We have a staff of over 40 Stewards, Scrutineers and Time Techs already and hopefully will add more. It cost money to train, equip and move the staff and equipment around the country for 29 to 30 races each year as well as providing other services like timing and scoring and Scrutineering equipment, licensing and a myriad of other details. I think most of you who have actually raced with us will agree that PCA Club Racing, all things considered, is a great value that hopefully is going to get better.

There will be more details coming out over the next few days.

Bryan

Coco_951

Well said Bryan! Thank you for taking the time to address this with the group. You've identified many perks of this decission that weren't brought to light before.

Phokaioglaukos

No issue with the message at all, but I would like to know how much money Michelin paid the club.

Edit: On the thread in Racing & DE Manny states that revealing this information would put the club at a competitive disadvantage. That may be the case if Michelin bid high compared to others and would be tempted to lower its bid for next year, so I guess we'll never really know. Of course if we see club racing do the lots of new things that cost money as Bryan notes, we'll get an idea!

fleadh

Can anyone verify what happens if a GTC car enters w/ a non-Michelin tire?

I'm going to register my GTC5 car for a local PCA club race but have done all testing/development on the car with Yokohamas. I know they're slower than the Michelins, but I don't want to re-sort the car just to run different tires for a weekend. If they were understood by everyone to be faster than the Michelins I wouldn't even try.. but given that they're slower, do they actually care?

Will it fail tech? Will they simply DQ me at the end? I just want the seat time.... not trying to cause problems... :-)

-mike

analogmike

they will move you to gta2 and yell at you.

just register in gta2 and save the hassle