Stephen Pitts

Superquant: asking this question here might incur some minor sampling errors... (Hey, and I am a very proud owner of a CGT as you probably know).

I think this thread has wonderfully explored all of the issues surrounding this debate and I think it is a larger question for you then many of us may have first surmised... Perhaps I am more sympathetic to it than others, so I actually have mentally listed the pros and cons of such a trade-off, but haven't seen much less driven the 918... So I feel I could say things that were unfair or unsubstantiated in comparing the two even though I have a pretty good idea of what my reaction will ultimately be. You need to drive the 918 and check it out!!! Fortunately, unlike other such temptations in life, you can actually do that (I would imagine!) and that will probably speak much more to you than imagining what it may be like --imagination is purposefully built to be more powerful than reality in human beings. Ask any seductress... (Except for my CGT, of course, because I can't quit her).

One last thing on technology: we sometimes always view technology as always "progressing" with time. There is no doubt the 918 is faster in almost every way than the CGT (okay, except on the autobahn past 150); that you will be less likely to loose control of it; that's it more ergonomic, etc. Now suppose you could also press a button called "self steering" and it would finally get your hands off of the steering wheel and out of the way so it can drive around the track much more efficiently (this technology has been tested and is being worked on, btw -- indeed, no doubt with all of the mollycollers around it be mandated by law in the future). And then you get strapped in and hit the RACE button and you hang on while the car performs death defying feats on a regular and reliable basis around the track. Well, maybe this wouldn't be so much fun even it would make the car measurably superior in every way (actually, come to think of it, we could achieve some further weight reduction here now...). So, as well pointed out by several others, it's the overall "visceral" experience of the car that is going to count the most here. That's why you need to test the 918 against the type of driving that you actually do!

If I were going to buy a 918, btw, I would rather risk losing 20% off the purchase price to have the car just the way I wanted because over the long term I don't THINK it will matter too much.

Cheers

CarMaven

To piggy back on Stephen Pitt's response; "it's up to you (and I think you know this already) Superquant".

It would be easy for all of us to say "hell no, don't sell the Carrera GT for a 918", being what we and YOU all know of the Carrera GT. Absolutely! It's regarded as one of the best super cars and visceral experience of modern times. The last of a breed, many say. It's definitely a keeper, no doubt.

However, on the other hand, it all depends on what you want, like, and will experience. And you wouldn't know that, till driving, riding in and/or owning a 918.

I happen to think (based off what we know already), the 918 may be on the short list for best car ever created. Think about it? It's super fast; sounding; handling; beautiful; innovative; technological, well detailed; well constructed; economical, while still being visceral. The only thing it lacks is utility; which it obviously wasn't created for. It's a two seater with a trunk for it's roof tops, leaving scant cargo area. Other than that, it seemingly checks all the boxes in such wonderful/satisfying extremes like no other car before it. Once again, Porsche sets the bar for Supercars, and for the future.

The question is: How will time, media, historians, collectors and enthusiast view that 918 Spyder in the future? That's something none of us really know now. However, YOU need to drive the 918 Spyder yourself, to find out what YOU love with it. Your opinion counts most for this thread. Lol

Interestingly; it appears that many Carrera GT owners love it in it's own right. And the beauty is, the 918 and CGT cars don't duplicate each other; leading up to your question/dilemma (of "which one") etc, in the first place. Haha. Porsche's not stupid you know; which is why they didn't create another Carrera GT clone as many cried for early in the 918 process. Lol

The sheer fact, after so many positive reviews and superlatives, Porsche's still improving the 918 (while both the P1 and Lafe are being released to customers; or close to it), let's you know Stuttgart's not playing with this one, as the CGT before it!! They wanna nail it!

Get both if you can, and/or hold on to your CGT (but make sure you try out the 918, if it keeps piquing your interest)!!!???

History (and personal memories), may treat the 918 very well, even if residuals do not in the near future?

niche

I wish I had this problem, sigh...





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superquant

Some really good feedback on this question. I agree no decision can be made without driving the car and evaluating it more closely. It appears that the way to do so is put 200k down as deposit. Refundable until 6 months prior to build date. Essentially I have to float Porsche 200k for the option to test the car and think about it. I could press dealer further on this as I have not been explicit in asking as a next step. I also don't want to tire kick so would only do so if I was possibly going to pull the trigger.

To Stephen's question as to what we are actually looking for in these experiences. The fully autopilot car is more like buying into a roller coaster, not something that engages you and requires skill that needs to grow over time. So thats clearly not what I would be seeking. I think most likely its as CarMaven said, Porsche made it so there is basically no overlap between the CGT and the 918, they appear to be that different in covering the overall span of automobile winingness. The themes are that different. In which case the only reasonable option is to have both as it would otherwise be losing something to gain a different kind of automotive experience.

after evaluation I think I would want the Weissach car in white, no decals but POSSIBLY martini. And the burmeister sound system. Like the attached ..

So .. what will that car be worth in 0, 12, 24, 48 months is the thing we are forecasting. The car wins on overall usability/reliability and integration of tech but it will likely be overall slower than LaF and P1, just because of physics of kg/hp.

niche

That looks sooo sweet. I say buy it! :-)

themarsman

What I haven't seen mentioned yet is to wait until the dealers have the cars on their lots for about 6 months and decide to heavily discount the car.

I bought my CGT in this manner and LOVE that I am the original owner of the car and will have it for the rest of my life. I certainly could of paid full retail for the CGT but was able to get a significant discount on a brand new car. I believe with the amount of 918's that are being produced you will be able to purchase a new one for 90-95% of the list price if you wait a few months. I also believe that similar to the CGT the values will drop more after that point.

I guess what does it mean to you to own the car from new, most cars that I own I buy 1 or 2 years old and let someone else take the big hit but the CGT was a car that I lusted for and wasn't willing to wait.

I am glad I bought the CGT, the problem now is all other cars that I have driven since haven't measured up!

Z356

Porsche is managing the sale of the 918 Spyders differently than what they did on the Carrera GT. Initially, there was even some talk of bypassing US dealers and customers directly placing 918 orders with PCNA! That plan was shelved and actual 918 orders are going through established Porsche dealers. But PAG intends not to build a car unless it has an actual customer committed to buying it at the other end - a real customer, not a dealer for spec inventory!

The reality is that there are a few US dealers that have placed an order for a 918 as if they - the dealer principal - will be the end user. Some 918 buyers I know have wondered if perhaps these few 918's will be resold at a markup once they arrive at these dealerships. Porsche is actively discouraging any such 'speculation', as it could jeopardize the set value they have established for the vehicle in all the markets where it will be sold. This 'speculation' is a two way street. If demand exceeds supply, the price goes up. But the opposite can happen and Porsche doesn't want to see 918 Spyders discounted as these speculative dealers get cold feet and try to dump their vehicles to monetize part of what they invested in the 918! Especially as the built-out of the 918 will take approx. one year from when they start production (March 2014). That is a very vulnerable window. Everyone is the auto business is cognizant of the Jaguar XJ220 and what happened when buyers cancelled their purchase options. That is why its optimal to built all of these 918's as quickly as possible and get them to their end-user buyers ASAP!

To insure less 'speculation' on the part of privateers, Porsche has also designed a program where original - first -owners of 918 who keep their cars for a minimum time - set in years - are rewarded by access to special allocations of desirable Porsche models and VIP treatment at various Porsche events worldwide. The full court marketing & sales press is now in effect to shake all the 'money trees' left standing and get the additional buyers necessary to fill ALL 918 slots available. The sooner that happens, the more confident the initial 'investors' in the 918 will be that the initial MSRP price set by Porsche for their 918 will hold value at those levels.

Saludos,
Eduardo
Carmel

heynow

As a 918 deposit holder there are a few things I would add. First, I love the look of this car and what they have done. The fact that I can take the top off is something I can't get in the ferrari or the mclaren. When I ask my self which car would I drive across country, it is the porsche hands down. In terms of a CGT, I think they are very complementary, and I might pick one up to have it sit next to the 918 so it doesn't feel lonely. Finally the VIP program is great, I can't wait to go to a Porsche VIP event like what I am hoping for at LeMans. Given the length of the program, I think it tells you when they are developing their new super car, and who gets to be first in line ... I have not driven the 918 yet, but I have been driven in one several times.

superquant

Related question that may matter to some: how do you know when you can "afford" an item like this?

On one level it's clear (when it is irrelevant to ones overall asset allocation).

But are there are other more developed frameworks for thinking about luxury items of this type? The same way that perhaps one may think of art or collectible wines etc as part of their portfolio.

From the perspective of expenditure classification where does the 918 fall on the spectrum from "play money" to "investment transfer"?

This is of course partially trying to rationalize that someone like me is not in the first class.

mousecatcher

Interesting that you mention wine. I guess there are folks that buy it to keep it? I buy my wines like my cars -- to use them. I used to have 7-8 cars, but I've realized I'm not a collector so now I have 2. I simply can't drive that many cars.

Back to the point, the 918 is so expensive that it isn't purely just a luxury good. You have to consider it to be a non-liquid asset, like real estate. I've seen mentioned that a range of 25-40% is reasonable, although 40% seems a bit high to me. I currently have about 80% of my net worth in illiquid assets, and am trying to get that down to 45-50% this year.

hf1

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable putting more than a few (< 5) % of my net worth into toy cars. The lower this % the more I am able to enjoy them the way they are meant to be enjoyed without stressing out.

I don't see the 918 (nor the CGT) as investments. Maybe they could be viewed as such if I never drive them, but even then I could find plenty of alternatives with better return/risk for my money so what would be the point of getting them? I'm not into petting cars and calling them "mine" in my garage.

Of course, values and priorities are subjective -- they are different for each person.

EDIT: Along mousecatcher's lines, the older I get the more I realize that ownership (of illiquid assets) is overrated.

biko

I have been thinking about a 918 for quite awhile and probably will pass. While it would be a very low percentage of net worth I can't quite get over the price for something that will depreciate, perhaps heavily, due to supply and technology (batteries).

Then it comes down to amount of pleasure per dollar: will it be 5-6x better than a GT3RS? More joy than my CGT or F12? More thrill than a 991 Cup?

Kind of like watches: Pateks are very nice, but I just end up liking my Sinn that much more.

Chalk it up to humble beginnings...

tcsracing1

When you have enough funds to spare on this type of car but still ask yourself what else could i do more responsible with the money then perhaps it is too expensive of a car for your budget….

superquant

if i refine what I mean by 'investment' in these cases: can you look at the this type of car (or the CGT, F40, etc) as an actual asset in your overall portfolio. It is likely not a high growth or earning asset, but like art, it can be a reasonable place to put money if you are clever about it. We can debate what percentage of the overall asset pie it deserves, but there is certainly a difference in my mind between choices there. When I put 335k into a CGT in 2010 I thought that it was a good value and I wouldn't be burning money if I wanted liquidity. Isringhausen is asking 440k for a car identical to mine now. I think I will always be able to get out of the CGT at a good profit and still use it. The same thing applies to a Ford GT I think. Hopefully the Singer too although I view that car differently. Clearly the smart money would have not put that coin into a car but dumped into a well timed market play but I'm trying to optimize my overall life utility function rather than pure expected returns. If I can get inflation + 4-5%/yr market value growth from an 'alternative asset' like a car, I wouldn't mind that at all for some portion of my overall asset mix.

Different story with an F12 or a 458 Spider at similar prices. With those you know what you are getting into in terms of the inevitable cost of ownership. There will be better faster in 3 years.

Relevant references for deep dive:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...nvestment.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorze...un-and-profit/

So insofar as the 918 might be classified as a relatively liquid, well priced asset at launch (and thats the big question) ..

niche

Perhaps a car starts becoming an "investment" when its value begins to surpass its initial purchase price and/or somehow it creates revenue for the owner. For example: it becomes profitable to rent to movie studios and weddings.