Ritter v4.0

"i have no problem with someone "making" a cup car out of a production 911, but to just cut a check...... not fair. you should have to work , and have be difficult to make a race car that wins classes. you need to earn it, . . "

I'm still registering the boneheadedness of this remark. If you want to argue the technical merits, or lack thereof for rules affecting different cars, and conclude for example that Cups should be penalized or even banned- please go ahead. But this type of remark above has no place or relevancy in the argument and is just silly. If someone can afford to "just cut a check (sic)" more power to them (pardon pun). We all know that racing is money correlated but does not in of itself guarantee speed. or a win. If you really want to get out the arms' race, pick a Spec class- but according to you it would matter how the car was acquired.

wanna911

I agree that cups are pretty well balanced with the non-production car modification. I haven't seen anything that was untouchable by them from an ST standpoint. This goes for any production race car. If a factory group of engineers built it, it will be better than what you have, all things equal, hence the penalty.

That being said, the so called ST1 NP01's , if the ones driving over here were any indication, werent touchable by a GT car at all. Period. I think they changed it slightly for this year but no chance in a full race, and barely a chance in TT and that's on long tracks only. Like Sebring. Look at the results from nationals. That NP01 mauls those GT cars at and track not full of straights.

mark kibort

Do i really need to make a case for why this is a reasonable assessment. If it wasnt dealt with, with this type of logic before, then SCCA wouldnt have made the same ruling for one of it's classes.
The point is this. you and i are going to race. we both are going to race a street based production race car. the spirit of the rules is to take the car and modify it to be a race car. test tune, etc.
It ALWAYS will be at a disadvantage than a car that comes from factory race engineers that build a car , from the ground up, in building a race car. should this car, and 911 made from scratch, be on the same level? are they equal? How many home-builts can compete with a factory race car, all things being equal. the bonehead logic is to think there is NO advantage, right?
the spirit of club racing is to fix up a street car and race it (in some classes) in others, its not. GT2, GT1, GT3, its not..... ST1, GTS, T1, it is. why do you think cup cant run in T1?
so, they penalize the factory built race cars with some type of weight or restriction, to equal the playing field and make things more interesting and fair for the home builts. if all of us DIDNT care about money, we would all just buy a cup car and compete in ST2 and have a pretty sizable advantage. doesn't mean you are going to win, by any stretch... but, it's an advanage and if you dont think it is, think again.

Ritter v4.0

I was not disagreeing with the argument you site above. It was patently not the point I responded to you on.

Kevin Fennell

Why would anyone not have Mark blocked? It was like the 2nd thing I ever did on this site. It's a lot easier then having to argue with him about what color the sky is...

mark kibort

I understand. you were more focused on the "acquisition" method, but that wasn't my main point. it's True, and you are right, you can cut a check for a modified GT3 street car or a used cup car and end up with the same result.

mark kibort

Kevin, what are you seven? There is no argument, just talking about racing classes and voicing an opinion. Sorry your so much of a baby and you cant control yourself and have to pump your self up, boasting your announcement, about your power to block someones posts. I cant imagine a need to make a post saying i didnt like someone or what they say. How does that contribute to the discussion?

mark kibort

David, let me put this in simple terms. say you are in the same class with a cup car (that you cut a check for ) as a heavily modified old 911. (and the check size is the same)
The reason that there are adjustments for the cup car for classing equalization is this.
There are 1000s of hours of data that most cup car owners can have access to. It's like a "Blue printed and balanced" engine.. they are all the same. So much data, and so easy to set it up from the start, to be very fast. It's an advantage BECAUSE the one off "hobby" racers have to "re'invent the wheel" every race, every mod, every time there is a problem. Nothing is the same, there is little data, and its a lot of work to make this kind of car, AS fast even with the same size check that needs to be cut! THIS is why there is a concession a "cup car" has to make when running with non -factory race car based platforms.
That's my logic... does that seem "boneheaded" now??
anyone else agree?

wanna911

But there is already and adjustment, so are you saying it isn't enough?

mark kibort

I'm making absolutely no judgement of the adjustment. it probably isnt fair based on other "adjustments " but the point is, i was justifying why there is one.
do you agree that there should be one, vs another home built car of the exact same performance level , before adjustments?
Its about the data, pro and otherwise, being so available, which is the advantage in my opinion.

wanna911

absolutely there should be one. I guess I misunderstood your first post to mean they shouldn't be allowed or the current modification wasn' enough. I would argue that because its a 911 in ST rules, they will over penalize it than under.

mark kibort

I totally agree with you too.... oh, and sorry I wasnt more clear at the beginning of this. It upsets me when these adjustments are NOT fair to whatever platform we are talking about. for me,now i really cant compete in GTS, as I have a huge disadvantage bases on something as silly as a blind displacement limit. do you think anyone cared in world challenge when the vipers had 8.2 liters and the porsches had 3.6? (and they produced the same exact HP to the wheels?) of course not, the porsches usually came out on top.
anyway, i guess the most fair rules are still going to be ST in NASA from what ive seen, But, ill have to look at what they are asking the cup cars to carry as far as penalty for being a factory race car. im sure it will be too much, based on the "purity " to keep it more of a corvette fest. There is a good argument now, that a good ST2 corvette (mostly x-WCGT technology and data) might have the same level of advantages as a cup car for the same HP/weight ratio. It is extremely wide, amazing aero, unappreciated weight balance. (engine front is behind the front axle like the Aston Martin V8vantage).
I dont have all the answers, but much of this is common sense which is in short supply these days.

wanna911

Agreed, the rules completely ignore the potency of a C5 or C6 Corvette and never are the rules such to level the playing field. For example tire width rules only applies to rear tires. So you only get points back if you run skinny rears. Huh? Last I checked Wider tires were a benefit at either end of the car. So corvettes run 315 in the front. Some even 335's. You can't even fit those on most vehicles yet they give no concession for smaller fronts. I ran 245's for years. 315s are a full 3 inches Wider in section width, which is what NASA uses now 2.5 inches Wider than my current 275's. How is that not considered an advantage? And I'm talking about bone stock Z06's can run those.

The Corvettes win everything and they seem to want to make sure nothing challenges them. Especially a 911. Trust me, its equally frustrating. I win, but because I'm driving my car much closer to it's limit than most I compete against. But I've driven some competitors cars that I know would smoke my car given equal effort. I've thought about jumping ship to overdog but that would be too easy. I like a challenge. Plus I don't want the accompanying lack of reliability.

BTW cup cars have a penalty of .4 which would be about 35 whp on a 3000 lbs car or 225 lbs for a 450 whp car.

That's assuming both on DOT, which is a big hamstring for Cups.

disasterman

z06801

Haha those can be quite potent also, I've put this clip up before of when my wing broke in practice so I dint have a qualifying time so had to start at the back. This LS3 944 was the last ST1 to pass in my class. Watch him blow my doors off on the front straight😂 I was patient on the last Two turn on to the front thinking I could just get a good run coming on the straight, nope! I think they can get pretty light in those 944s and the LS3 is pretty much a break even on weight to the 951 motor.