Roebling death
02-12-2018, 06:12 PM
#76
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Originally Posted by jdistefa
Grab the wheel whenever it makes sense re. impending doom. Been there, done that.
The problem with dogma is that there are always exceptions. Better to think and spare one's own life rather than be a slave to policy.
The problem with dogma is that there are always exceptions. Better to think and spare one's own life rather than be a slave to policy.
When I am in the car with someone, my NUMBER ONE concern is my own safety. Number two is the driver's.
02-12-2018, 06:15 PM
#77
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My brother I’m law instructs at motorcycle DE events, some of which are at RRR.. They do lead follow. Perhaps that approach could be implemented in our hobby? Then when students progress to a certain point, if they want to spend the extra $ to improve further, data analysis could be the next level of instruction, utilizimg pro coaches. I’ve been out of instructing for a few years for a few reasons, one of which is safety concerns.
For decades in professional schools, lead-follow has worked well. The idea of ride-along instructors at professional schools is (and has always been, with the exception of skidpad training) very unusual. Usually limited to a "ride and drive" or "driving experience" event.
I think safety is on everyone's mind, the organizers, Region and Zone chairs and officers, the CI's and the participants. The instructors really have skin in the game. And this is a big deal, not just when someone gets hurt or dies.
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02-12-2018, 08:29 PM
#78
Burning Brakes
I was at Roebling a couple years ago for Comp. School and had been there once before at a DE probably 5 years earlier. Both times I noticed the dirt/sand berms and the tire barriers looked which in general looked **** poor (not all of them, but most of them). The tire barriers looked to be maybe 2-layers deep at best, V stacked, old sunbaked things with weeds and probably some trees growing out of them. Run-off and sight lines in general are not too bad there, but the tire barriers and dirt/sand berms always struck me as the track not caring too much about safety.
02-12-2018, 08:37 PM
#79
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It's a lot better now. When hired for the position of General Managers over fifteen years ago, Jack Abbott and his wife were the GM's at Roebling. Now, Jack has brought that knowledge back and is the current General Manager for Roebling.
Like Chris White at Summit, Jack has pushed hard for improvements, particularly in expanding runoffs, grading and maintenance of verges as well as tire-bundling, but it's owned by the Jacksonville-based Buccaneer Region of the SCCA, and they're on a tight budget.
Jack, and Richard before him, have done a lot in the last few years at Roebling, IMO.
Like Chris White at Summit, Jack has pushed hard for improvements, particularly in expanding runoffs, grading and maintenance of verges as well as tire-bundling, but it's owned by the Jacksonville-based Buccaneer Region of the SCCA, and they're on a tight budget.
Jack, and Richard before him, have done a lot in the last few years at Roebling, IMO.
02-12-2018, 09:22 PM
#81
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As region President and leader of our group into an exciting year of upcoming DE events I can only offer with sadness my condolences to the driver and instructor and their families involved in this tragic accident.
It's been even more sobering listening to the experiences offered by the instructors here and I can only say "thank you" for your time and dedication in all that you do. I have a new appreciation for those of you sitting in the right hand seat.
Some years back I rented a 991.1 GT3 in Las Vegas and was slightly put off by the attitude of my instructor to my comment that "I'd done a few AutoX events". I wasn't saying that I was a pro or anything but I can see why now he would react to such. The experience want fine but we did stop in the shop to the his brake pedal cable tightened up.
Moving ahead a few years with some DE instructional events, one track day and a couple AutoX events later I have a new appreciation for what can go wrong. Luckily there were no body injuries, just a bit of scratched paint that was easily repaired etc... BUT what I now appreciate is to how fast things can go wrong. And all it takes to is to mentally "gap out", for just a second, before going into a corner to get into trouble. These small incidents sobered me up and I think have made me a better, more technical driver, perhaps slower in many ways.
Again, thank you to all the instructors who have risked your lives for guys like me that early on probably really don't appreciate your point of view.
And to the families again, you are in our thoughts.
It's been even more sobering listening to the experiences offered by the instructors here and I can only say "thank you" for your time and dedication in all that you do. I have a new appreciation for those of you sitting in the right hand seat.
Some years back I rented a 991.1 GT3 in Las Vegas and was slightly put off by the attitude of my instructor to my comment that "I'd done a few AutoX events". I wasn't saying that I was a pro or anything but I can see why now he would react to such. The experience want fine but we did stop in the shop to the his brake pedal cable tightened up.
Moving ahead a few years with some DE instructional events, one track day and a couple AutoX events later I have a new appreciation for what can go wrong. Luckily there were no body injuries, just a bit of scratched paint that was easily repaired etc... BUT what I now appreciate is to how fast things can go wrong. And all it takes to is to mentally "gap out", for just a second, before going into a corner to get into trouble. These small incidents sobered me up and I think have made me a better, more technical driver, perhaps slower in many ways.
Again, thank you to all the instructors who have risked your lives for guys like me that early on probably really don't appreciate your point of view.
And to the families again, you are in our thoughts.
02-12-2018, 09:32 PM
#82
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As member of the North Florida PCA region, we received an announcement of Bob's sudden passing. He was President of the NFL region. The cause of his death was not mentioned in the announcement. This is so terribly sad to learn. It is gut wrenching.
Last edited by matttheboatman; 02-12-2018 at 09:34 PM. Reason: expanded for clarity
02-12-2018, 10:44 PM
#83
Burning Brakes
[QUOTE=ProCoach;14796007]
. But this is not twenty-five years ago, when we were in Rabbits, 914’s and 924’s...
Hey now Peter, some of us are still in 924's! On a serious note sad day for all, prayers & condolences to the families.
. But this is not twenty-five years ago, when we were in Rabbits, 914’s and 924’s...
Hey now Peter, some of us are still in 924's!
On a serious note sad day for all, prayers & condolences to the families.
02-12-2018, 10:46 PM
#84
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From a Florida Citrus driver at the event
“Our sympathies to both Wilson families for Bob’s loss and for Patrick’s serious injuries. We regret this tragedy and the struggle many people are going through as a result. This accident is still under investigation and we all await the final police report, hoping they can help us all better understand what happened and if possible be able to make improvements or changes that might prevent injuries and especially any possible fatalities of our drivers in the future.
The facts: I was in a car behind Mr. Wilson. We saw that his car was running up on the car ahead which was just about to enter turn 1. We saw his car make a slight left movement to avoid rear ending that car, then it left the pavement never having hit the brakes. The car then began moving back to the right ending up impacting the earthen berm parallel to the berm, on the drivers side, but the momentum was so great the car ran up the berm with the nose rising into the air, and then like a whale falling back after jumping from the sea, the car fell back onto its top coming to rest upside down.
Opinion: Since the brake lights never came on, which should have done so even if the brakes themselves had failed, and there were no skid marks, it appears for whatever reason, and most likely a health episode, Mr. Wilson was not capable of controlling the car at those moments. It is not known if Mr Wilson died prior to the accident or as a result of the accident. But it appears it was Patrick the instructor who acted heroically grabbing the steering wheel, turning the car to the left to avoid the collision with the car ahead and then back to the right to avoid a head on impact with the berm. Under this scenario I can’t think in the split seconds involved that any additional action could have been made by Patrick to have circumvented the impact. We hope he heals quickly and will be able to share his experience which might help us all in the future. Only he will be able to say for sure what happened.
Other than health screenings (and even that won’t be able to avoid someone having a cardiac episode in spite of a passed medical exam,) the only items that might have helped disminish the catastrophic results of this accident in my opinion would be a tire wall in front of the berm that could have absorbed some energy or a gravel pit installed at the end of the straight, which should be a improvement for RRR track management to consider in the future. (My understanding is there are some EPA issues about any additional use of tires/tirewalls at this location so that may not even be an option).
Florida Citrus runs very well organized and safe events. This accident was not the result of drivers gone wild on the track, or because of a driver was overdriving their car or an instructor was not properly keeping the student within boundaries. This was something other. It is tragic and again our prayers go out to the families.”
02-12-2018, 11:04 PM
#85
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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^^^Thanks for sharing and condolences for everyone who was involved and also those who were at the event. Nothing is worse than a quiet track in the middle of the day.
02-12-2018, 11:34 PM
#86
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An earth berm is certainly NOT an adequate "barrier" for a track runoff area.
02-13-2018, 01:16 AM
#87
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I went into that berm in 2004. Left the track at 100+ and frosty grass on a cold January morning didn’t help slow me down much. There were some tires, piled up, but not a proper barrier. Thankfully, most of the energy was dissipated by dragging tires under the car, and I didn’t launch over the berm into the trees. As for the sand trap in front of the berm? Cleared it. No tire marks. Sore neck for a week (pre-Hans), and sore wallet from the repairs. The tires are gone now. They really need to install a proper tire barrier there. Don’t know if it would have helped in this accident, but there will be more. I’ve been conservative going into T1 ever since.
02-13-2018, 08:12 AM
#88
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Please allow me to add my condolences and prayers to all of those involved in this tragic situation. I have been instructing for some 20 years by now and have on only a couple of occasions had to grab the wheel of a student's car both times in turn 16 at Sebring. In both cases the student was trying to pull wheel hard back to the right after running wide in turn I6 I simply stopped wheel from being jerked to the right I held wheel more on a straight line and we simply ran a few yards in the grass then came back on the track with no damage or injury.
My observations over the years is that with the increased speed and performance capabilities of the cars showing up at DEs these days the reaction interval after student has exceeded the built in technologies of the modern car has decreased to a point that I am not sure how possible it is to grab a wheel or do other instructor assists in emergency situations.
I am not sure that an annual medical release letter would not be a good idea st least it would require a student driver to inform his/her physician of the intended activity and force a conversation regarding any health concerns, hell when my perfectly healthy 15 year old son wanted to play high school soccer years ago he needed a medical release not sure a 40 or 50 something individual driving a high speed car in a DE environment is not under more physical stress then a 15 year old.playing soccer.
Rich
My observations over the years is that with the increased speed and performance capabilities of the cars showing up at DEs these days the reaction interval after student has exceeded the built in technologies of the modern car has decreased to a point that I am not sure how possible it is to grab a wheel or do other instructor assists in emergency situations.
I am not sure that an annual medical release letter would not be a good idea st least it would require a student driver to inform his/her physician of the intended activity and force a conversation regarding any health concerns, hell when my perfectly healthy 15 year old son wanted to play high school soccer years ago he needed a medical release not sure a 40 or 50 something individual driving a high speed car in a DE environment is not under more physical stress then a 15 year old.playing soccer.
Rich
02-13-2018, 08:42 AM
#89
Rennlist Member
My annual PCA club racing physical forces me to address the fact that at my age I cannot get away with the things that I could when I was younger. We spend a boatload of time and money on car preparation, a 20 minute session with the doctor is not a bad idea for de participants.
02-13-2018, 08:55 AM
#90
Rennlist Member
I am not sure that an annual medical release letter would not be a good idea st least it would require a student driver to inform his/her physician of the intended activity and force a conversation regarding any health concerns, hell when my perfectly healthy 15 year old son wanted to play high school soccer years ago he needed a medical release not sure a 40 or 50 something individual driving a high speed car in a DE environment is not under more physical stress then a 15 year old.playing soccer.
Rich
Rich