Maxhouse97

Looking for the best and most cost effective group to “climb the ladder” so to speak ... goal is to get to competitive time trials for now, W2W license down the road. Which is the best group to run with, what are the pro’s and cons of each?

I own two Porsche’s but am thinking of buying a cheap E46 M3 for a track car, so don’t necessarily have brand loyalty. Looking for the most cost effective path with maximum seat time. I was just checking on NASA & PCA HPDEs, and the NASA event was 25% more on the entry fee, which started this thought in my mind..

Do these different clubs honor each other’s qualifications/licenses? Where would you go to track and earn your way to TT? I am currently at HPDE 3 for NASA, one step below instructor group.

Tony

gbuff

I'd stay right with NASA--in HPDE 3 you're 2 steps away from TT. At Mid-Ohio w/ Great Lakes Region HPDE3, 4, and TT all run together on the Friday of their weekend events, but remember that TT is all about finding free track to get that one golden lap (which is why I never got into it and continue to run in HPDE4, but that's just me). Of course, running with other groups certainly can't hurt experience-wise. There are others on this forum with TT experience that hopefully will chime in.

Gary

Thundermoose

I enjoy NASA TT quite a bit. An E46 M3 is cheap to buy but expect to put another $50K+ in it to get to be raceable.

NASA is good because you can race quite a bit within your region. BMWCCA and PCA appear to require quite a bit more travel. Also depends on where you live.

BMWCCA has a nice race school that doesn't necessarily teach you race craft but does teach you how to share the track when you're racing.

Each club is going to have its own requirements so it's not 100% transferable as far as licenses go, but I think running with one group will certainly help you with the licensing process for the other group.

I have done some WRL W2W but have opted to stay in TT with my E46 M3 because its more affordable form of competition but I'm giving up something by not doing W2W.

My recommendation is to attend a BMWCCA race school. They accept DE cars. Also do TT for a year or so and see how you like it. Gives you a chance to build pace as well.

pu911rsr

I run NASA TT with an E36 M3. I've had comp licences in the but was looking a cheaper alternative to having some fun in a car at the track. In the region and class I run run in we generally are running the HPDE 4 guys. The faster TT groups have their own run group. I've run PCA DE events I would say I prefer NASA because you can run timed events.

Phil

911ted

The PCA TT format is all about the "Golden Lap".on late Sunday afternoon.
The POC here in SoCal has multiple sessions for Saturday & Sunday top time for points format, twice the opportunity for that magic lap

85Gold

I have been running NASA TT for 9 years. Yes it’s all about the Golden Lap but it is still competition. NASA is the biggest place to play in TT. NASA also has both Hoosier and BFG contingency program for TT. Before I changed from TTD Civic Si to the 987.2 in TT3 I hadn’t purchased a Hoosier for 5 years.

SCCA has started a National TT program also. For now it is laid back in that the srsbzns people haven’t taken over yet. https://timetrials.scca.com/
They are catering to all levels of drivers from Novice to licensed TT and Racers. I have run a few events and the vibe is really good with a after track party every night. No contingency but you can get rewards $$ from Tire Rack for certain consumables like tires, brake rotors, OZ wheels when you purchase them from TR. So far this year I have gotten $415 in rewards.

Oh and Locktin and Haggerty will now write insurance for timed TT Events.

Peter

cay-man

I’ve done an SCCA National Tour TT event, and it was very well run. You need nothing special (no special equipment or licenses) except for what you’d use for a normal HPDE event.

#GRIDLIFE has a similar traveling “Track Battle” program. Their model is to combine TT/HPDE with a music festival and camping. It’s similar to SCCA National Tour in that for TT (which #GRIDLIFE calls “Track Battle”), you don’t need any special licenses or equipment.

I think both of the above indicate a trend to make TT more accessible for the everyday performance driver/hobbyist. They also both have “street” classes for cars with bolt-on mods, only.

https://www.grid.life/trackbattle-timeattack

Gofishracing

NASA fastest progression. Less experienced quickly progressed at times. Remember that. Great diversity of cars & great people.

bcp2011

Are you saying great drivers progress more quickly or that some people progress more quickly than their skills otherwise would dictate?

pu911rsr

I would say that is a fair statement- two things that happen in NASA DE events- you have a GT RS's running next to miata's and you have a pretty large skill set disparity in the lower run groups. Once you get into HPDE 4 the really slow drivers in fast cars are gone.

Phil

Gofishracing

Both best answer .

bcp2011

Interesting. My experience with them in Great Lakes is that there’s a huge disparity in 1 (which one would expect as you have first timers and those who have been tracking for a year), but by 2 most drivers are pretty decent. When I was in 2 and going to other groups doing intermediate I was usually on the faster end (with my cars capabilities). Not to suggest some unnatural ability here - just that I learned a lot in DE 1 and 2 with NASA. BY 3, most drivers are very competent as they do two wide and three wide drills, etc. Thus far I’ve not encountered anyone in 2/3 who do not belong there (again, in GL region)

alexaqui

In my region (NY metro), I just cannot get over the "bad value" that NASA seems compared to other clubs like PCA. Events are 2-3x the cost of a PCA event for a DE with less driving. Is it that much better that it warrants it? I recognize that the NASA program is a feeder to racing and from what I have observed, I believe the level of driving is WAY higher than in your typical PCA DE.

Thundermoose

GL is recognized as having best NASA DE program.

bcp2011

I agree it's a bad value if you're already fairly advanced, and not looking for TT or W2W racing. The price is the same around here (not sure about PCA, but with other clubs), but against the most track time clubs it's roughly 2x the price per hour.

I started two years ago and shopped around, so to speak, with ~7 regional clubs around me. What became very clear is that there are a bunch of variables in which the clubs optimize for (track time, safety (both inspection and on track), instructor quality, pipeline for racing (NASA only), community, etc.). I have a lowly Subaru so BMW/PCA/Audi clubs aren't a natural place to hang out (not to suggest folks aren't friendly), and I'm a bit older so don't want the shenanigans that Gridlife has to offer, and I care about safety to make sure I don't ball up someone else's ride, or worse, get myself hurt (regardless of fault).

My first time on track was with NASA, had the same instructor during the weekend, and he was awesome. Second weekend, new track, different club, beginner group, was told that instructors were hard to come by so if I could be responsible on track I'm on my own... Third time was in Road America, beginner group, had three different instructors in the first three sessions and they gave me three different ways to go from turn 2 to 3... Fourth time, back in the first track, was in intermediate, and during first session I saw a nice car just wondering around the track. Gave me a point by pretty quickly, but was told by instructor that the driver was XXX, and that he's been in the club for 20 years, and he enjoys bringing the car on track but not necessarily driving it quickly, but because he's a long time member and knows how to point people by he's in intermediate. Same club, this year, in intermediate, I lapped a faster car in about 15 mins (~10 seconds faster per lap) and was running faster than my instructor (in a faster car). Chin is the only group that I've experienced where in intermediate the pace is commensurate with the speed of the cars (and there are fast cars!).

What's become clear for me is that practice (just lapping) is not nearly as effectively as deliberate practice, so the value of having an instructor (hopefully the same one throughout the weekend) is immense. I've met people whose metric for experience is the number of days they've done, and compare themselves based on that (e.g., "oh you've done 5 more days and that's why you're faster") but usually that's not the reason - they just haven't been coached the right way or have just been learning by themselves. I think a good analogy might be skiing - I was fortunate to have learned skiing at the age of 26 with an instructor for three straight days (company paid!!) and got pretty decent quickly. Seeing friends after that in business school trying to learn to ski by themselves was eye opening, even though they're just as good if not better "natural" athletes.

So for me the value of NASA is fantastic, despite the per hour cost, as I think I'm learning far faster than I could in most other clubs I've come across. Also, since the program is designed to get you to race, DE3/DE4 starts a bunch of drills to get one students comfortable with close car action on track, something I've not seen done elsewhere. No judgment on clubs or driver XXX mentioned above - everyone has a different goal on what a great track day means. NASA may indeed be a fairly poor value value if learning how to go fast and racing isn't the main objective.