ProCoach

Well, you do get pedal/butterfly differential (throttle intrusion) and all four wheel speeds, plus brake pressure does work now, but no, it's not as full featured as the 2012-on cars like the 981 and 991.1/991.2 series.

It has to do with the regulations in place requiring these cars to be equipped with more sophisticated TC, PASM and ABS.

The date points for the phase in of these systems (in steadily increasing complexity and power, to respond to regulation changes) are first 2006, then 2009, then 2012. Not a lot of changes since then.

User 52121

Roger that - thanks!

NYoutftr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hacked 987
I guess, my advice? If you want to cut fast laps, get bragging rights, and don't care whether it's YOU or the CAR doing it? Leave it on. It will ultimately cover up bad habits and let you progress to a pace you otherwise wouldn't obtain, and skip over key lessons usually learned in between. If you want to learn, and become a better driver, even if it means fewer bragging rights on lap time? Turn it off.

My 2 cents.




I have wondered if the the car, ie. the ones equipped with nannies, accelerate the progression of instructed run group drivers getting bumped up to the next run group.

ProCoach

I don't know... I would hope that the observation and evaluation by the right-seat instructor would focus on not only the best execution of fundamental skills, but also evaluate judgment, the ability to keep calm, vision, decision-making under stress, traffic management, all of that.

The idea that people lose their minds when promoted to intermediate or advanced solo is not supported by the data. I would like to think that is true also with the proactive lessening of nannies...

smq42

Fascinating thread! Does anyone know if the 997.1 GT3 PSM (first iteration of PSM on a Porsche GT car) is always "doing stuff" without the light coming on?

(I've never noticed the light on the dashboard but have managed to exceed the laws of friction/adhesion and therefore had to learn some of the laws of angular momentum. . . thankfully, in a clear area and I didn't have to encounter the laws of metallurgical deformation and conservation of linear momentum!)

ProCoach

Hahaha! Like that description of exceeding the limits at the end.

I am no expert, and I'm sure they'll post if they see this, but my understanding is that if turned off, the 997.1 PSM does not reengage unless the brake is actuated above certain limits and/or the car is restarted. But I don't know.

boxer-11

The answer to that is definitely "yes".

On my logger (which is connected to 2 of the 5 CANBUSes in the 991.2 GT3 I have) the config template has on/off type channels for ABS activation, ESC activation, TCS activation, and also some more performance and less safety oriented aids for example: EBD and MSR (that's differential braking [which I think is torque vectoring in the marketing blurb] and engine drag control...I mention those because in these modern cars it shows there are all kinds of systems lurking in the background that help the car go faster for which you have no direct inputs).

I generally look at sets of laps to see if there are places where I'm consistently seeing activations of these systems. Then I think about what I'm doing to provoke them and try and change my inputs to avoid the activations. I think it's actually helped me to drop lap time as I've smoothed out and found more grip as a result.

You can see ABS if you have the 4 wheels speeds as mentioned but it's harder to see the other systems at play so having them logged is nice because you can just see at a glance those places where you are consistently leaning on these systems and immediately find big moment spots in the data as well (not that I ever have those!! lol ).

By correlating with video though I have noticed that ESC in particular can sometimes activate for very short time windows and at the same time the yellow idiot light on the dash does not come on...I think it's telling me in such places that I'm pushing my luck in such places a bit and it's ready to leap in to really do something. It's hard to see in these blip places if there's active input from the nanny but by contrast when you have an extended ESC activation in this trace data you can almost always correlate that to things like reversal in yaw rate and other cues in various measures. I suppose in theory you could get good at seeing those patterns in the motion signals and rule out driver input as the cause and thus conclude that the system reached in and helped you. Having the activations logged though does make it faster...and removes doubt who's - ahem - at fault

Janton9736

This is one of my biggest questions. I have a 2009 base Carrera. Have No idea if or when nannies are helping. I’ve done about 10 de events in just over a year. I think I am improving, and would like to turn off the nannies but also don’t want to risk immediate crash if I been dependent of them.

Wild Weasel

Honestly, I've never felt the need as I had no idea they were actually doing anything. I've always told myself that if the nannies are ever stepping in to keep me from doing something I'm trying to do on purpose then I'd consider turning them off. Since they haven't, and have bailed me out on occasion, I just thought we had a good thing going and were working well together.

I am definitely inspired. Come springtime, I guess it's time to give it a shot. There's a side effect though. I believe if I turn them off I'm also going to lose the auto-blip so I guess it's time to work on my heel-toe. I can do it but I'm definitely not proficient. I've done sessions without the auto-blip but when I "just want to go fast" I'd turn it back on. I guess it's time to learn to be fast while doing it entirely myself.


If I get to that point, I'll remember to come back to this thread and get that name. Thanks!

Not for me. I seem to have been permanently relegated to the White group in my region.


I think he was asking about the same thing I asked when starting this thread. Whether it's doing stuff in the background even though the lights aren't coming on. I don't think he was talking about when it's turned off... but I could have misunderstood.

Manifold

On the skidpad, you can turn PSM on and off and compare to see when it intervenes as a function of speed, yaw, yaw rate, throttle, etc. It's difficult on the skidpad to properly test the effect of braking on PSM. With my Porsches (997.1 C2S, Cayman R, GT4, 991.1 GT3) on the skidpad, I've generally found that PSM doesn't intervene at all when it's off (the car will spin if you don't catch it), and the threshold for intervention is very high when it's on (you probably wouldn't have caught it if PSM didn't catch it). I conclude from this experience that interference from PSM on track is probably mainly during corner entries which involve substantial trailbraking.

Glen

Only problem is that he's a genuinely nice guy....😁

Glen

Student meets with Dr. Pro Coach....
" I'm fine, don't use psm, experimented with abs a few times but it was just socially....I'm sure I don't have a problem...."

Doc..." We'll have you ever gone a week without?"....

Student..." How would I know?"

Doc...." You would've crashed"

User 52121

I'm certain of it. I've been asked to do a ride-along with students who'd been solo'd already after randomly sitting in on my classroom sessions who were very clearly leaning on the nannies. I personally never would have solo'd them had they been my assigned student for the day but then I think that discussion opens up a whole OTHER can of worms about instructors looking for the notoriety of being an instructor, but also in a hurry to get out of the car ASAP.

The GT3 may be different? (I've heard more than once that when it's "off" on the GT cars, it really is "off".) But I can tell you that my 987.2 (which is NOT a GT car) - with the PSM buttom "off" (this is before I put a switch to kill the yaw sensor), I still had PSM intervention. Autobahn Country Club, "South 1" is a very long multiple apex, right-handed almost 270 degree turn (you start headed due East, end up almost due North before a quick left) - trail brake on the way in to stick the nose, then start rolling in the power as the turn unwinds to a very late apex - I'd go back to power to find the car falling flat on its face. Reviewing helmet cam footage after the fact - the yellow light on the dash (that was solidly illuminated because I turned PSM off) was flashing whenever I felt the power drop.

Now it's possible I had some ABS engagement on the passenger front on the way in as I'd have the driver's side pretty heavily loaded and would have had a toe on the brake pedal. I've heard that any ABS activation will "re engage" the PSM (temporarily?) so perhaps that was it.

That said - the next time I returned to that track, I'd installed a cut switch on the yaw sensor and had 0 issues.

FFaust

And he works for beer

chrisc

My experience with essentially stock P-cars on the track is the first sign of PSM intervention is a loss of throttle response when the system senses a lateral load outside the"safe" parameters. In the 2017 up 718's and 991.2's equipped with Sport Chrono Porsche bundled in the PSM Sport setting, which gives more latitude but still has a measure of safety especially when its damp, cold or both.