Sim Racers, got some questions
10-24-2019, 01:26 PM
#1
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Sim Racers, got some questions
I finally have enough room in my house where I could build a sim racing rig. But I would like to get some real world expectations.
What I really want, is to have a platform that will improve my club racing. (sp1) To that I would want:
- realistic car control at the limit
- realistic clutch/shifting
- realistic race craft.
assuming I am starting with nothing (no pc, no wheel, etc). is this even doable? I realize I might be looking at more $$ into a sim rig than I would into my sp1, but if it gives me much more relevant track time, then I might consider it.
if a high quality sim rig, is still a "learn the track and have some fun sim racing, but doesn't really translate" then I would probably go with a much more basic setup.
Does anyone here actually use a sim rig for legit training?
What I really want, is to have a platform that will improve my club racing. (sp1) To that I would want:
- realistic car control at the limit
- realistic clutch/shifting
- realistic race craft.
assuming I am starting with nothing (no pc, no wheel, etc). is this even doable? I realize I might be looking at more $$ into a sim rig than I would into my sp1, but if it gives me much more relevant track time, then I might consider it.
if a high quality sim rig, is still a "learn the track and have some fun sim racing, but doesn't really translate" then I would probably go with a much more basic setup.
Does anyone here actually use a sim rig for legit training?
10-24-2019, 01:48 PM
#2
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Hahaha!
While much more common now, I and several others have been using static and dynamic sims for more than two decades to train club-level and professional drivers in all three of the disciplines you list VERY successfully.
You need to do a search, because there have been a lot of good posts here on how to do what you want to do. On a budget, as opposed to $30K Sim Seats, $80K CXC (god bless them) and $660K Cruden Hexapods, all of which are local to my office a the track. My dinky static sim was put together for less than $7500, but I’ll put it up against just about anything for steering, shifter and pedal “feel,” all key to realism.
Without inevitable feature creep, you need a powerful computer to” draw” with the best detail a realistic track and landmarks, a great pedal set for developing brake release skills and a good steering wheel (just got my Simucube Pro), so you can “feel” the understeer!
It can be done and done well, on a budget...
While much more common now, I and several others have been using static and dynamic sims for more than two decades to train club-level and professional drivers in all three of the disciplines you list VERY successfully.
You need to do a search, because there have been a lot of good posts here on how to do what you want to do. On a budget, as opposed to $30K Sim Seats, $80K CXC (god bless them) and $660K Cruden Hexapods, all of which are local to my office a the track. My dinky static sim was put together for less than $7500, but I’ll put it up against just about anything for steering, shifter and pedal “feel,” all key to realism.
Without inevitable feature creep, you need a powerful computer to” draw” with the best detail a realistic track and landmarks, a great pedal set for developing brake release skills and a good steering wheel (just got my Simucube Pro), so you can “feel” the understeer!
It can be done and done well, on a budget...
Last edited by ProCoach; 10-24-2019 at 02:41 PM.
10-24-2019, 03:14 PM
#3
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Hahaha!
While much more common now, I and several others have been using static and dynamic sims for more than two decades to train club-level and professional drivers in all three of the disciplines you list VERY successfully.
You need to do a search, because there have been a lot of good posts here on how to do what you want to do. On a budget, as opposed to $30K Sim Seats, $80K CXC (god bless them) and $660K Cruden Hexapods, all of which are local to my office a the track. My dinky static sim was put together for less than $7500, but I’ll put it up against just about anything for steering, shifter and pedal “feel,” all key to realism.
Without inevitable feature creep, you need a powerful computer to” draw” with the best detail a realistic track and landmarks, a great pedal set for developing brake release skills and a good steering wheel (just got my Simucube Pro), so you can “feel” the understeer!
It can be done and done well, on a budget...
While much more common now, I and several others have been using static and dynamic sims for more than two decades to train club-level and professional drivers in all three of the disciplines you list VERY successfully.
You need to do a search, because there have been a lot of good posts here on how to do what you want to do. On a budget, as opposed to $30K Sim Seats, $80K CXC (god bless them) and $660K Cruden Hexapods, all of which are local to my office a the track. My dinky static sim was put together for less than $7500, but I’ll put it up against just about anything for steering, shifter and pedal “feel,” all key to realism.
Without inevitable feature creep, you need a powerful computer to” draw” with the best detail a realistic track and landmarks, a great pedal set for developing brake release skills and a good steering wheel (just got my Simucube Pro), so you can “feel” the understeer!
It can be done and done well, on a budget...
What I was thinking of was something like:
Big Bad PC (tbd)
fanatic clubsport inverted pedals.
Fanatic cls wheel
Fanatic clubsport shifter
NLR gttrack rig
NLR (traction platform) (maybe, its expensive)
triple screens.
I'm not familiar with the simucube pro. will have to check it out
10-24-2019, 03:22 PM
#4
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I'd talk to Kelly at http://www.racecraft1.com/ He's done some pretty nice sims for pro drivers and uses them daily in their coaching business.
10-24-2019, 03:50 PM
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There is no shortage of folks that supply equipment or have simulators that are properly set up for serious training.
I like Crimson Simulation in Mooresville NC, Sim Seats in Richmond VA, Mark Lutes in Atlanta, Jeff Segal in Miami FL and Simmetric Labs in FL, among others. Dominic Dobson (the Indy car driver) has a very good thing going in the Pacific Northwest. SimRaceWay at Sonoma and CXC in SoCal are all very good.
It’s easy to find individual components and the ones you have listed are all good, but the real challenge is making it all work together so there can be “a suspension of disbelief.”
You want a situation where you can immerse yourself in the driving of the sim. THAT is the hard part. The settings and setup of the wheel, the pedals, the display (either conventional screen, projector or VR) all help you do that and that’s where the best money is spent.
I like Crimson Simulation in Mooresville NC, Sim Seats in Richmond VA, Mark Lutes in Atlanta, Jeff Segal in Miami FL and Simmetric Labs in FL, among others. Dominic Dobson (the Indy car driver) has a very good thing going in the Pacific Northwest. SimRaceWay at Sonoma and CXC in SoCal are all very good.
It’s easy to find individual components and the ones you have listed are all good, but the real challenge is making it all work together so there can be “a suspension of disbelief.”
You want a situation where you can immerse yourself in the driving of the sim. THAT is the hard part. The settings and setup of the wheel, the pedals, the display (either conventional screen, projector or VR) all help you do that and that’s where the best money is spent.
10-24-2019, 04:02 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
I think others can speak more informatively on what the best wheels and pedals might be for you, but I'll say that in my case VR stepped up the realism far beyond monitors. You get a better sense of elevation changes, and its more realistic in terms of looking through corners and planning your line. I've upgraded to Oculus S, but honestly its not a huge improvement in resolution. That's the knock on VR, but in my book the immersion offsets the lower graphics quality. I'm fortunate that I don't get sick using VR, but some people can't tolerate it. But it does get hot/uncomfortable in long sessions.
10-25-2019, 08:08 AM
#7
Second vote for the efficacy of VR. Way better for training your ocular skills, which run far deeper than just looking up the track.
The timing is great as well since the latest generation of headsets has been recently released. I’d look at the Valve Index for sure, and as a bonus, for racing sims you don’t need the hand controls/wands and only need one beacon.
The timing is great as well since the latest generation of headsets has been recently released. I’d look at the Valve Index for sure, and as a bonus, for racing sims you don’t need the hand controls/wands and only need one beacon.
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10-25-2019, 10:55 AM
#8
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did a bunch of research last night. If I understand correctly, if you roll your own almost each piece of kit (wheel, pedals, motion, etc..etc) all has their own driver/program that you need to dial in, then you need to dial it in per application you want to run. Does sound like a pita.
Given that each piece of kit has its own setup tool, it seems like there is some benefit to try to stick with a limited number of companies. i.e. simxperiance sounds like they have one app that does their wheel/motion/etc. I think fanatec has one that will configure their wheel and pedals.
I know the benefits to VR, but I also have other constraints (and could add vr later), plus VR sounds like just one more thing to have to configure, etc.
I also did not appreciate that since I looked into this a few years ago, direct drive wheels are a thing. The simucube or fanatic dd both seem pretty impressive.
It also seems like order of importance is:
High quality pedals/wheel
configuring everything very well
traction loss (reading mixed reviews on this, it seems like a high enough quality wheel gives you most of what you would want)
motion (most all the motion stuff out there seems kinda lame. i.e. the seat moves, but not the rig/pedals. I could see that as being a bigger distraction then a benefit.
I do think I will start small and go from there. I have an entry level fanatec xbox wheel/clubsport pedals and playseat that I had to put away years ago. I'm thinking I get a pc and use those in iracing first.
Given that each piece of kit has its own setup tool, it seems like there is some benefit to try to stick with a limited number of companies. i.e. simxperiance sounds like they have one app that does their wheel/motion/etc. I think fanatec has one that will configure their wheel and pedals.
I know the benefits to VR, but I also have other constraints (and could add vr later), plus VR sounds like just one more thing to have to configure, etc.
I also did not appreciate that since I looked into this a few years ago, direct drive wheels are a thing. The simucube or fanatic dd both seem pretty impressive.
It also seems like order of importance is:
High quality pedals/wheel
configuring everything very well
traction loss (reading mixed reviews on this, it seems like a high enough quality wheel gives you most of what you would want)
motion (most all the motion stuff out there seems kinda lame. i.e. the seat moves, but not the rig/pedals. I could see that as being a bigger distraction then a benefit.
I do think I will start small and go from there. I have an entry level fanatec xbox wheel/clubsport pedals and playseat that I had to put away years ago. I'm thinking I get a pc and use those in iracing first.
10-25-2019, 11:11 AM
#9
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I agree with pedals being at the top of the list. I think the wheel is next.
Chris and I have gone back and forth, and to be honest, I haven’t taken him up on his offer, but my experience with motion other than D-Box actuators is not good. I feel “traction loss,” along with 2DOF and especially 6DOF is a HUGE distraction from the immersion, at least for me and many of the pro drivers I’ve worked with over the last twenty years.
The only other thing that I think is SUPER important is the GPU capability of the PC. The ability to draw almost photorealistic tracks, curbs, buildings, tree lines, antennas in the distance (entering the Keyhole on the Club Course at Mid-Ohio), PA speakers and power transformers on poles in the distance (think Bishops entry at Sebring and Turn 5 at BOTH Road Atlanta and at the apex at Sebring) is very important, at least for my ocular motion training to allow an accurate “fix” of my position at entry and apex of many, many corners.
Most sims are scaling their graphic details based on the hardware capability of the machines they’re run on. Almost all have graphics setting auto-calibration apps that run initially to set that detail.
It can quickly spiral out of control, and of the hundreds of sim rigs I’ve driven over the years, up to and including several Cruden Hexapods (but not Dallara Indy or Multimatic, yet), I’ve driven less than a handful that were calibrated and adjusted correctly for lack of latency and not overdoing the sensory inputs to enhance “the effect.” Start gently and add speed slowly.
I will give a shoutout to Derek Speare, a really good source for the stuff he has available. Thomas Jackermeier, Leo Bodnar and Heusinkveld are all long-time contributors, suppliers and companies that push this thing forward. It’s an exciting time!
Chris and I have gone back and forth, and to be honest, I haven’t taken him up on his offer, but my experience with motion other than D-Box actuators is not good. I feel “traction loss,” along with 2DOF and especially 6DOF is a HUGE distraction from the immersion, at least for me and many of the pro drivers I’ve worked with over the last twenty years.
The only other thing that I think is SUPER important is the GPU capability of the PC. The ability to draw almost photorealistic tracks, curbs, buildings, tree lines, antennas in the distance (entering the Keyhole on the Club Course at Mid-Ohio), PA speakers and power transformers on poles in the distance (think Bishops entry at Sebring and Turn 5 at BOTH Road Atlanta and at the apex at Sebring) is very important, at least for my ocular motion training to allow an accurate “fix” of my position at entry and apex of many, many corners.
Most sims are scaling their graphic details based on the hardware capability of the machines they’re run on. Almost all have graphics setting auto-calibration apps that run initially to set that detail.
It can quickly spiral out of control, and of the hundreds of sim rigs I’ve driven over the years, up to and including several Cruden Hexapods (but not Dallara Indy or Multimatic, yet), I’ve driven less than a handful that were calibrated and adjusted correctly for lack of latency and not overdoing the sensory inputs to enhance “the effect.” Start gently and add speed slowly.
I will give a shoutout to Derek Speare, a really good source for the stuff he has available. Thomas Jackermeier, Leo Bodnar and Heusinkveld are all long-time contributors, suppliers and companies that push this thing forward. It’s an exciting time!
10-25-2019, 11:47 AM
#10
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Pedals are interesting. almost every setup out there are floor mounted pedals. One of my goals would be to mimic as best as I can my race car, hence the desire to have an inverted pedal setup. looks like the only real option here is the fanatec inverted. which seem good, but not great.
Still trying to figure out exactly what people mean by 2dof..etc, but having the seat bounce around seems annoying. but something like this:
https://www.nextlevelracing.com/traction-plus-platform/
only. not having the seat mover, but having the rear of the car slide, seems like it would be good. but it could easily be a 6k toy.
as far as gpu goes. I'm a GPU hardware architect by trade, so I will be getting the biggest baddest dual gpu setup. (will also play some other games).
Still trying to figure out exactly what people mean by 2dof..etc, but having the seat bounce around seems annoying. but something like this:
https://www.nextlevelracing.com/traction-plus-platform/
only. not having the seat mover, but having the rear of the car slide, seems like it would be good. but it could easily be a 6k toy.
as far as gpu goes. I'm a GPU hardware architect by trade, so I will be getting the biggest baddest dual gpu setup. (will also play some other games).
10-26-2019, 10:24 AM
#11
I agree with this in terms of sim vs real 100%
For a rig:
- Simcube Pro or Ultimate wheel base
- A wheel of your choice. Martin Ascher does high end stuff.
- Simlabs P1 or equivalent chassis
- HPP or HE pedals
- High end machine
Those are all high end parts without going full motion.
The sims wont' scale with SLI so don't bother. Maxing out your CPU frequency and manually tightening ram will help a lot. VR is amazing. I don't drive on flat screen.
Assetto Corsa and iracing and easiest to get into. Start there.
For a rig:
- Simcube Pro or Ultimate wheel base
- A wheel of your choice. Martin Ascher does high end stuff.
- Simlabs P1 or equivalent chassis
- HPP or HE pedals
- High end machine
Those are all high end parts without going full motion.
The sims wont' scale with SLI so don't bother. Maxing out your CPU frequency and manually tightening ram will help a lot. VR is amazing. I don't drive on flat screen.
Assetto Corsa and iracing and easiest to get into. Start there.
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ProCoach (10-26-2019)
10-26-2019, 10:47 PM
#12
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My rig is basically:
2080ti with an i5
Four 2k 144hz Dell Panels (one top center for telemetry)
Sim Lab P1-X (bought the components to convert my P1)
Fanatec CSW 2.5 with a McClaren wheel
HE Sprints
Spraco Seat
You can build all this stuff yourself. The settings are not that hard. Particularly if you get the HE Sprints, as those have windows software for putting together custom profiles. And, people share those on the forums.
If you decide to go deeper into this, get into the hardware forum on iRacing. People are selling stuff on their all the time. I got my wheel and base for like $600 and they came in the original box barely used. People are unloading stuff on there all the time, so I would strongly recommend look into that as a way to save a few bucks.
Be forewarned, if you buy an 80/20 rig, it is an EVENT building it. Also, for your race room, as dumb as it sounds, you will want to either be able to really crank down the AC or have a decent fan. In my case, I am renovating an old sleeping porch here outside DC that is enclosed. Putting in a mini split, so I will be able to really crank down the AC.
For league racing, I have been having a lot of fun with the guys as cmsracing.com on Wednesday night. I even won the overall GT3 standings, though I was in the bottom class and nobody showed up consistently in my class. So, there is that. LOL
It is an exciting time in sim racing. At this point in my life, it is great because I don't think I would have the time to commit to wheel to wheel for reals. And, with good league racing, the racing is very very good.
Good luck!
10-27-2019, 07:37 AM
#13
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Also, for your race room, as dumb as it sounds, you will want to either be able to really crank down the AC or have a decent fan. In my case, I am renovating an old sleeping porch here outside DC that is enclosed. Putting in a mini split, so I will be able to really crank down the AC.
10-27-2019, 11:43 AM
#15
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Entry level motion rigs are completely worthless. Best available combination now: Simucube2 Ultimate wheel, HE Ultimate pedals or ProSims, 80/20 rig With a proper seat, triple screens running 144HZ, high end gaming computer, and a good steering wheel. Quaif makes super realistic h-pattern and sequential shifter. Contact Dan Clarke via his website - Dan Clarke.me. He customs builds a super realistic sim and sets it up well.
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Skylar_Schutz (11-30-2019)