A truly brown pants moment - with a great save
12-21-2019, 08:36 PM
#91
Rennlist Member
At some level we all make our own decisions wrt the level of safety equipment we use.
Personally I am race suit/nomex underewear/hans/harness/cage/extinguisher for DE and choose not to drive with super aggressive people (but do love some cat/mouse with people I know and trust)
That said... if you have a time trial group that have hired the track, are comfortable driving in close quarters with each other (and it seems this group is) and they choose to use some but not all safety equipment, why is it anyone's business but theirs? (its not for me.. but its also not my business)
In fact you could probably argue that they are still safer than most forms of true wheel to wheel racing (even with less safety equipment) given that the probability of car to car contact is orders of magnitude lower vs a full field of cars jostling for position for an entire race.
Not endorsing.. just unsure why so much criticism (it would be different if it was a normal DE event with a few idiots trying to make it a "race"... but I think this is a regular group who mutually consent to run this format so shouldn't we leave them alone?)
Personally I am race suit/nomex underewear/hans/harness/cage/extinguisher for DE and choose not to drive with super aggressive people (but do love some cat/mouse with people I know and trust)
That said... if you have a time trial group that have hired the track, are comfortable driving in close quarters with each other (and it seems this group is) and they choose to use some but not all safety equipment, why is it anyone's business but theirs? (its not for me.. but its also not my business)
In fact you could probably argue that they are still safer than most forms of true wheel to wheel racing (even with less safety equipment) given that the probability of car to car contact is orders of magnitude lower vs a full field of cars jostling for position for an entire race.
Not endorsing.. just unsure why so much criticism (it would be different if it was a normal DE event with a few idiots trying to make it a "race"... but I think this is a regular group who mutually consent to run this format so shouldn't we leave them alone?)
I know a few people that don't drive on the street with seat belts. I make a point of always lecturing them about it.
I do NOT view what they are doing as safer than wheel to wheel racing where there are enforced safety standard for cars and drivers and a safety network at the track of medical, control and corner workers.
When I look at the OP video I think to myself these are the events that we read about at which participants die. Sorry to preach, I take safety seriously.
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LuigiVampa (12-21-2019)
12-21-2019, 08:46 PM
#92
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I think that those of us that love this sport take safety very seriously and do not hesitate to call people out when they are not being safe.
I know a few people that don't drive on the street with seat belts. I make a point of always lecturing them about it.
I do NOT view what they are doing as safer than wheel to wheel racing where there are enforced safety standard for cars and drivers and a safety network at the track of medical, control and corner workers.
When I look at the OP video I think to myself these are the events that we read about at which participants die. Sorry to preach, I take safety seriously.
I know a few people that don't drive on the street with seat belts. I make a point of always lecturing them about it.
I do NOT view what they are doing as safer than wheel to wheel racing where there are enforced safety standard for cars and drivers and a safety network at the track of medical, control and corner workers.
When I look at the OP video I think to myself these are the events that we read about at which participants die. Sorry to preach, I take safety seriously.
You can say they are assuming the risk but they are actually putting the whole sport at risk. It's selfish.
See below as an example of what (tragically) happens -
https://www.reviewjournal.com/local/...files-lawsuit/
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Coochas (12-21-2019)
12-21-2019, 09:29 PM
#93
Glad no one was hurt. What annoys me in these kinds of videos is the script/commentary that the driver adds, incessantly and persistently throughout the video and during the "race". As if he needs to explain every move he is making to the "dumb masses", who could never otherwise understand or even fathom the complexities of his art.
How about one short comment at start and one at end, to explain what was going on and what happened, and what we might learn from it. That's it. We don't need a corner by corner walk-through explaining his every move. Only shows me that he is embarrassed about what happened, has a big ego, and needs to explain the incident away with many, many words and "walk us through it" line by line so it is "assured" we see it the way he wants. I am sure he is a very good driver, coach and racer, but the never ending, mostly irrelevant and certainly obtuse commentary is not only unnecessary and annoying to the extreme but it also tells me something about who he is. He would never see the inside of my windshield.
Here is me during a Time Trial at the Glen. Nothing to say other than I was lucky. No special skill saved me, just blind luck. No long explanations are needed, other than that the Racing Gods decided in my favor at that moment and I am very thankful. Other driver was OK and walked away, just a bit shook-en up.
How about one short comment at start and one at end, to explain what was going on and what happened, and what we might learn from it. That's it. We don't need a corner by corner walk-through explaining his every move. Only shows me that he is embarrassed about what happened, has a big ego, and needs to explain the incident away with many, many words and "walk us through it" line by line so it is "assured" we see it the way he wants. I am sure he is a very good driver, coach and racer, but the never ending, mostly irrelevant and certainly obtuse commentary is not only unnecessary and annoying to the extreme but it also tells me something about who he is. He would never see the inside of my windshield.
Here is me during a Time Trial at the Glen. Nothing to say other than I was lucky. No special skill saved me, just blind luck. No long explanations are needed, other than that the Racing Gods decided in my favor at that moment and I am very thankful. Other driver was OK and walked away, just a bit shook-en up.
12-21-2019, 10:44 PM
#94
Glad no one was hurt. What annoys me in these kinds of videos is the script/commentary that the driver adds, incessantly and persistently throughout the video and during the "race". As if he needs to explain every move he is making to the "dumb masses", who could never otherwise understand or even fathom the complexities of his art.
How about one short comment at start and one at end, to explain what was going on and what happened, and what we might learn from it. That's it. We don't need a corner by corner walk-through explaining his every move. Only shows me that he is embarrassed about what happened, has a big ego, and needs to explain the incident away with many, many words and "walk us through it" line by line so it is "assured" we see it the way he wants. I am sure he is a very good driver, coach and racer, but the never ending, mostly irrelevant and certainly obtuse commentary is not only unnecessary and annoying to the extreme but it also tells me something about who he is. He would never see the inside of my windshield.
Here is me during a Time Trial at the Glen. Nothing to say other than I was lucky. No special skill saved me, just blind luck. No long explanations are needed, other than that the Racing Gods decided in my favor at that moment and I am very thankful. Other driver was OK and walked away, just a bit shook-en up.
https://youtu.be/wk-uDX9M4v0
How about one short comment at start and one at end, to explain what was going on and what happened, and what we might learn from it. That's it. We don't need a corner by corner walk-through explaining his every move. Only shows me that he is embarrassed about what happened, has a big ego, and needs to explain the incident away with many, many words and "walk us through it" line by line so it is "assured" we see it the way he wants. I am sure he is a very good driver, coach and racer, but the never ending, mostly irrelevant and certainly obtuse commentary is not only unnecessary and annoying to the extreme but it also tells me something about who he is. He would never see the inside of my windshield.
Here is me during a Time Trial at the Glen. Nothing to say other than I was lucky. No special skill saved me, just blind luck. No long explanations are needed, other than that the Racing Gods decided in my favor at that moment and I am very thankful. Other driver was OK and walked away, just a bit shook-en up.
https://youtu.be/wk-uDX9M4v0
As for the original thread, I saw some of the language being used to describe the action and I didn't bother to look further. As I've said before in previous threads, I've done hundreds (and hundreds) of track days and have never raced, but anyone who equates a "DE" with "racing" in any way, shape or form is f***ing delusional.
Gary
12-22-2019, 12:08 AM
#96
Rennlist Member
I think that those of us that love this sport take safety very seriously and do not hesitate to call people out when they are not being safe.
I know a few people that don't drive on the street with seat belts. I make a point of always lecturing them about it.
I do NOT view what they are doing as safer than wheel to wheel racing where there are enforced safety standard for cars and drivers and a safety network at the track of medical, control and corner workers.
When I look at the OP video I think to myself these are the events that we read about at which participants die. Sorry to preach, I take safety seriously.
I know a few people that don't drive on the street with seat belts. I make a point of always lecturing them about it.
I do NOT view what they are doing as safer than wheel to wheel racing where there are enforced safety standard for cars and drivers and a safety network at the track of medical, control and corner workers.
When I look at the OP video I think to myself these are the events that we read about at which participants die. Sorry to preach, I take safety seriously.
Fair enough, good points.
Not referencing your comments specifically when I say this, but if the intent of all this criticism is to genuinely encourage the OP/others to be safer, then a less insulting tone and approach would stand a much better chance of them wanting to take note.
12-22-2019, 02:21 AM
#97
Nordschleife Master
I'm sitting at an airport waiting for a flight so I've got some time to kill:
Some of you are making the same fatal mistake that an unfortunate PCA 'instructor' made when did a check out ride with me earlier this year. This individual had never met me, but decided to make a lot of incorrect assumptions which clouded his judgement. He made a lot of ridiculous statements, freaked out at my 6-7/10ths driving, and decided to kick me out since he was the 'chief driving instructor'. Before you start getting ready to make assumptions about me and sneer at me, the ultimate outcome was that he ended up losing his instructor certification and was banned from PCA. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen often unless something egregious occurs.
Don't assume that someone is incompetent or inferior to you just because you don't know who they are. You may be a big fish in your little pond, but you could be in for a rude awakening when someone visits from a lake.
To those of you rolling your eyes at Jeff for using the term 'racing'. Yes, it's not racing. Yes, it's not the correct way to describe the event. Most of the time when someone describes a DE this way, they are usually morons. Most of the time. In this case, there are a few things that would explain why he uses the term 'race'. Jeff has been racing wheel to wheel since he was a kid starting with karting. He made it up to the pro level racing formula cars and had a great record. He ultimately had to retire, like many good racers do, because he wasn't well enough funded. The guy has a normal job now, but he still loves driving cars, so he does DE's and coaches on the side (I have hired him in the past and he is a fantastic coach). I don't think he ever even did DE's prior to this, so he only knows racing. He doesn't care to make the distinction like most of us here do. He's also building a YouTube channel for the masses. Let's be frank, people who don't do this stuff call it racing even though it's not. I try to correct people all the time, but they keep on asking me, "when are your going racing again?!" It's a lot easier now that I actually race wheel to wheel.
To those of you who think Jeff is a hack driver: If anybody on this board, Pro coach or not decided to challenge him, he would either wipe the floor with you or at the very minimum make you sweat and work hard if you happen to be talented as well. He can take anyone's car and run staggeringly fast times right away. He broke a spec boxster lap record in someone else's car by over a second in one session, and the car is considered to be a 'car that needs a lot of work' by the SPB racers. I consider myself to be a good driver (2 seasons racing scca spec miata in 2 classes finishing 1,2,2,and 3 for those seasons), but real talent will wipe the floor with me. Jeff is real talent.
Those of you laughing at lap records: if it's the fastest time a particular car has gone around the track, what would you call it? SpeedSF has specific classes and records lap records for each of those classes. What are you supposed to call it instead?
To those of you who think you need a Hans and cage at a DE: you are taking yourselves too seriously. Hans and cage are not required at a DE. If you're telling me you need a Hans and cage if you are timing yourself, you're taking yourselves too seriously. If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously. A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away. I'm not saying Hans and cage is a bad idea. Safety is always good, but it has to be done properly. How many times have we seen improper mounting and setups? Blanket statement that no Hans and no cage is dangerous for a DE is not correct.
To those of you that think it's a crime to drive hard at a DE and run as fast of a lap as you can: what are you doing instead? This I really want to know. It might explain some of the painfully slow drivers out there. Do you honestly think DE drivers aren't out there trying to drive fast??
To those that are armchair quarterbacking: hindsight is 20/20. You can think all you want that you've got eagle eyes and always see everything 3 turns ahead of you. You're either driving really slow, or, one day you're gonna find out you're not as eagle eye'd as you think. Things can happen in the heat of things. Anybody that has done this long enough has missed something. I don't care who you are.
I'm surprised that not one single person here has mentioned the one glaring oversight that thankfully didn't cause a huge catastrophe:
There was NO flagger at the start/stop. This is NOT the fault of the organizer. This is the fault of the track. I'm not aware of a single track that doesn't put someone in the start/stop box. You watch all of the videos in this incident and there was no flag at start/stop and nobody in the box. That was the only flag station available before the incident at T3 that day and it was empty (t2 not manned). Why a red flag or at least a yellow was not waved is unacceptable to me. Car after car drove by with no warning and multiple cars went off track as a result. Someone left their station unmanned. It's also likely the T3 flagger didn't call in the oil and crash so someone would have at least called for a flagger at start/stop. Multiple points of failure usually lead to these incidents. Thankfully it wasn't worse. It could have been a lot worse.
My flight is taking off.
Some of you are making the same fatal mistake that an unfortunate PCA 'instructor' made when did a check out ride with me earlier this year. This individual had never met me, but decided to make a lot of incorrect assumptions which clouded his judgement. He made a lot of ridiculous statements, freaked out at my 6-7/10ths driving, and decided to kick me out since he was the 'chief driving instructor'. Before you start getting ready to make assumptions about me and sneer at me, the ultimate outcome was that he ended up losing his instructor certification and was banned from PCA. I'm pretty sure that doesn't happen often unless something egregious occurs.
Don't assume that someone is incompetent or inferior to you just because you don't know who they are. You may be a big fish in your little pond, but you could be in for a rude awakening when someone visits from a lake.
To those of you rolling your eyes at Jeff for using the term 'racing'. Yes, it's not racing. Yes, it's not the correct way to describe the event. Most of the time when someone describes a DE this way, they are usually morons. Most of the time. In this case, there are a few things that would explain why he uses the term 'race'. Jeff has been racing wheel to wheel since he was a kid starting with karting. He made it up to the pro level racing formula cars and had a great record. He ultimately had to retire, like many good racers do, because he wasn't well enough funded. The guy has a normal job now, but he still loves driving cars, so he does DE's and coaches on the side (I have hired him in the past and he is a fantastic coach). I don't think he ever even did DE's prior to this, so he only knows racing. He doesn't care to make the distinction like most of us here do. He's also building a YouTube channel for the masses. Let's be frank, people who don't do this stuff call it racing even though it's not. I try to correct people all the time, but they keep on asking me, "when are your going racing again?!" It's a lot easier now that I actually race wheel to wheel.
To those of you who think Jeff is a hack driver: If anybody on this board, Pro coach or not decided to challenge him, he would either wipe the floor with you or at the very minimum make you sweat and work hard if you happen to be talented as well. He can take anyone's car and run staggeringly fast times right away. He broke a spec boxster lap record in someone else's car by over a second in one session, and the car is considered to be a 'car that needs a lot of work' by the SPB racers. I consider myself to be a good driver (2 seasons racing scca spec miata in 2 classes finishing 1,2,2,and 3 for those seasons), but real talent will wipe the floor with me. Jeff is real talent.
Those of you laughing at lap records: if it's the fastest time a particular car has gone around the track, what would you call it? SpeedSF has specific classes and records lap records for each of those classes. What are you supposed to call it instead?
To those of you who think you need a Hans and cage at a DE: you are taking yourselves too seriously. Hans and cage are not required at a DE. If you're telling me you need a Hans and cage if you are timing yourself, you're taking yourselves too seriously. If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously. A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away. I'm not saying Hans and cage is a bad idea. Safety is always good, but it has to be done properly. How many times have we seen improper mounting and setups? Blanket statement that no Hans and no cage is dangerous for a DE is not correct.
To those of you that think it's a crime to drive hard at a DE and run as fast of a lap as you can: what are you doing instead? This I really want to know. It might explain some of the painfully slow drivers out there. Do you honestly think DE drivers aren't out there trying to drive fast??
To those that are armchair quarterbacking: hindsight is 20/20. You can think all you want that you've got eagle eyes and always see everything 3 turns ahead of you. You're either driving really slow, or, one day you're gonna find out you're not as eagle eye'd as you think. Things can happen in the heat of things. Anybody that has done this long enough has missed something. I don't care who you are.
I'm surprised that not one single person here has mentioned the one glaring oversight that thankfully didn't cause a huge catastrophe:
There was NO flagger at the start/stop. This is NOT the fault of the organizer. This is the fault of the track. I'm not aware of a single track that doesn't put someone in the start/stop box. You watch all of the videos in this incident and there was no flag at start/stop and nobody in the box. That was the only flag station available before the incident at T3 that day and it was empty (t2 not manned). Why a red flag or at least a yellow was not waved is unacceptable to me. Car after car drove by with no warning and multiple cars went off track as a result. Someone left their station unmanned. It's also likely the T3 flagger didn't call in the oil and crash so someone would have at least called for a flagger at start/stop. Multiple points of failure usually lead to these incidents. Thankfully it wasn't worse. It could have been a lot worse.
My flight is taking off.
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12-22-2019, 02:29 AM
#98
Great reply but I just wanted to respond to the only part I brought up earlier.
Many trackday organizations (such as HOD) will not let you on track without a hans if you are wearing a harness. Apparently SpeedSF is not one of those organizations. Good for them.
To those of you who think you need a Hans and cage at a DE: you are taking yourselves too seriously. Hans and cage are not required at a DE. If you're telling me you need a Hans and cage if you are timing yourself, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
We're not saying that.
If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
That's not what we're saying.
A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away.
This is EXACTLY my point. That person would NOT have walked away if he was wearing a harness without a hans. A 3 point is safer than a harness without a hans in a head on collision.
We're not saying that.
If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
That's not what we're saying.
A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away.
This is EXACTLY my point. That person would NOT have walked away if he was wearing a harness without a hans. A 3 point is safer than a harness without a hans in a head on collision.
12-22-2019, 02:29 AM
#99
Great reply but I just wanted to respond to the only part I brought up earlier.
Many trackday organizations (such as HOD) will not let you on track without a hans if you are wearing a harness. Apparently SpeedSF is not one of those organizations. Good for them.
To those of you who think you need a Hans and cage at a DE: you are taking yourselves too seriously. Hans and cage are not required at a DE. If you're telling me you need a Hans and cage if you are timing yourself, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
We're not saying that.
If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
That's not what we're saying.
A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away.
This is EXACTLY my point. That person would NOT have walked away if he was wearing a harness without a hans. A 3 point is safer than a harness without a hans in a head on collision.
We're not saying that.
If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously.
That's not what we're saying.
A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away.
This is EXACTLY my point. That person would NOT have walked away if he was wearing a harness without a hans. A 3 point is safer than a harness without a hans in a head on collision.
12-22-2019, 02:33 AM
#100
To those of you who think you need a Hans and cage at a DE: you are taking yourselves too seriously. Hans and cage are not required at a DE. If you're telling me you need a Hans and cage if you are timing yourself, you're taking yourselves too seriously. If you think I'm being reckless by not installing a cage and running a hans in a modern day car with modern day OEM safety equipment at a DE, you're taking yourselves too seriously. A friend ran over oil at laguna seca last year and hit the wall head on at 100mph with only a 3 point belt and helmet. He walked away.
12-22-2019, 02:55 AM
#101
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by cabbagerocket
You do realize that your friend likely would NOT be alive today if he hit that wall head on with a harness and wasn't wearing a hans device, right?
12-22-2019, 03:11 AM
#102
Edit: I get why you brought up Jeff, I see that he was also wearing one in the other video. I assume that's the DOT approved Schroth Quickfit that is safe to wear without a harness. My main gripe was SpeedSF allowing Gary to go out with a Takata harness and no hans.
12-22-2019, 03:20 AM
#103
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
12-22-2019, 07:24 AM
#105
Originally Posted by orthojoe
Please don't talk down to me. We're all well aware of why one should wear a Hans when using a harness. Jeff included.