MarcD147

as the primary victim of the Sebring T7 chaos I submitted below letter to get rules changed in order to reduce the cupcar drama. I am sure it is not perfect, you can shoot holes in it but something needs to change. I encourage you to constructively contribute to this discussion here as well as write with your suggestions to those that will review them:West, Pat, Bill,

At Sebring I had the unfortunate experience of being taken out in the T7 incident of Blue Sprint 2. I have spend a bunch of time thinking about this and I feel there is room for improvement. Even if it is not clear what needs to be done it is very clear that the current status quo of cup car crashes on the big track is unacceptable and unsustainable. Additionally these incidents potentially create reputational damage to Porsche and PCA clubracing.

Some datapoints:

• Laptimes in the cupcar rungroup vary 16-20% making it the group with the highest speeds and closing speed differentials in cars whilst also having the wide variation of skill levels typical for club racing; (eg GTB1 or SPB has similar skill level differences but the closing speeds are much lower due to the cars being much more similar which results)
• IMSA (and other organizations) grid multiclass starts by class
• Majority of incidents seem to happen first lap midpack when faster cars with less skilled drivers are still close enough to use the power in their car to try to make a pass instead of relying on their skill
• There is not true accountability for incidents and behavior post incidents

Causes for the Chaos:

The problem can/needs to be separated in 3 different subproblems; for simplicity they are all focused on the first lap of a race. All 3 are similar but different levels of severity of the same problem due the different levels of chaos they produce:

1. All cars are gridded by qualifying time which reflects their race pace
2. Most cars gridded by qualifying time which reflects their race pace, 2-3 much faster cars are gridded in the back
3. The front half of the grid is gridded by qualifying time which reflects their race pace but the back half is random due not running a rains session (qualy or race)

Possible Solutions for each of the 3 subproblems:

1. Grid the classes in order of speed and grid cars within their class based on their qualifying or lap time. (as a GTC3 car I rather work harder to pass a slower GTC4/5 car than getting speared by a less skilled driver in GTA3 or GTC6 car)
2. Grid the classes in order of speed and grid cars within their class based on their qualifying or lap time. The 2-3 cars that missed their qualifying or laptime get gridded within their class but at the back of the class. Drivers/Stewards have option to grid them all the way at the back of pack if they believe they will be slow
3. Those who qualified are gridded by the classes in order of speed and grid cars within their class based on their qualifying or lap time. Those who didn’t qualify or have laptime from earlier race in the event get released from the hotpits at 1 s intervals in order of qualifying/lap times or rennpoints predicted starting when last car reaches apex of T1

Punishment for Crime

Proactive

In my country club if I don’t pay my bill on time I get posted. I figure causing an incident or getting a 13 is worse than that.

• All 13s should be posted on the pca club racing site with name incident date and expiration date.
• prior to every race names of those that are participating and have an outstanding 13 are posted with a picture of the car they will be racing at the event. It enables those around them to be aware and hopefully forces the 13s in question to show additional caution.
• In drivers meetings it is announced that we have x drivers (just count not names) in blue run group that are on a 13; y drivers in pink run group on a 13 etc and their names are posted in the registration room.

Reactive

• Not showing up for video review, paperwork etc post an incident should automatically result in an additional 13
• Not having video post an incident should result in an additional 13
• You can only serve 2 13s concurrently so if the above results in more than 2 outstanding 13s on your record the 3rd or more 13s will have to be served after the first 2 expires which will result in suspensions of more than 1 year.

Veloce Raptor

Well stated

Steve113

"Grid the classes in order of speed and grid cars within their class based on their qualifying or lap time. (as a GTC3 car I rather work harder to pass a slower GTC4/5 car than getting speared by a less skilled driver in GTA3 or GTC6 car)"
Doesnt work its the same issue in reverse . I am in a GTC3 and usually are 2nd or 3rd on over all grid . Put me back with GTC3 and it will be the same situation with me coming through the field

This situation was a driver that has had a major challenge in life (I give him credit for even racing ) but probably should not be racing at this level with his impairment. Compounding with a really bad on track decision. ( Do some research )

Cars that didnt qualify - honestly if they were smart they would have just done 1 lap at the back of the field to get a time and be ahead of the other cars that didnt . I did that this year at Lime Rocks race when I had no rains and it was raining/snowing
P.S - I was the only one on slicks but had so much fun I stayed out for the whole race rather then one lap

Nizer

Single file starts and/or no passing on first green lap also worth considering. Majority of pile ups happen on Lap 1 so giving cars a chance to get up speed before attempting a pass and reducing the number of cars trying to navigate choke points side-by-side might make sense.

Nizer

You weren't the only one.

MarcD147

at NJMP or Lime rock yes but there wont be many GTA3 or GTC7 cars anyhow so it doesnt matter. at WGI or Sebring you wont be 2nd or 3rd on overall grid (and yes Steve I know you are really quick :-)

winders

Some people make fun of the club I race with here in Northern California, the PRC, for having some "sissy" rules. At the start, we don't allow people to go more than two wide until after the first competitive turn on the race track (e.g., until turns 2 at Laguna Seca and Sonoma Raceway). For the rest of the race, we don't allow people to more than two wide in corners.

Why do we have those rules? Because we could not sustain the racing with carnage we would get on some starts when people would go three wide and four wide and then try to make it through the first competitive turn without the pinball effect. We also found people not being consistently good at handling being more than two wide in corners in general. This wasn't everyone in the club, but it was enough people that the option was stricter rules or reducing the number of racers.

This has worked well over all. The Spec 911 class would race under these rules with over 20 cars and have quality completive racing. Yes, there could have been more action with less restrictive rules, but I can't argue that the racing would have actually been better.

Steve113

Nizer - I hope you had as much fun out there

Marc - I may or may not be but can you expect the rules to change just for a couple of tracks? I have raced in NASA where they have swapped grid positions for each race (times/class) and honestly the middle of the pack is still a cluster f__k the first lap or two until it spreads out. Personally I think its the job of PCA officials in our drivers meeting to make special note that faster and slower drivers are mixed together if there was a qualifying issue . This would make everyone aware . Sure some of them are clueless anyway and will forget as soon as the flag drops (or when the helmet goes on) but no matter how you change it that percentage will always be clueless.

You have the same issue as a really fast car not qualifying for what ever reason and starting in the back of the pack at the race. This happens all the time, everyone just has to be supper aware. Since the beginning of racing the first lap is a just get through it and survive mentality . If everyone had the "survive" part remembered we might all get through it unscathed . Its funny how people are less aggressive in an enduro start but feel in a 30 min sprint they will risk life and limb to make that one low percent pass. They forget that its still a long race . Maybe thats why enduros are actually more fun from a racing standpoint.

I agree with you on everything else good job

Steve113

Winders- thats P__sy racing ............ only kidding you said it first .

Honestly though while that might work in your particular club . For me it takes a lot away from what racing should be. If we all just were forced to learn to leave racing room when we can I guarantee it will be more fun and we would be able to race closer and safer at the same time. Nothing like being in a tight race with 2 or 3 other guys that you trust and they trust you. 3 wide is hairy but you know we arent looking to crash each-other out and I might say usually we are more generous because we respect each other

SkeerRacing

Number 3 on the Causes of Chaos is it for me. Random second half of the grid is just never going to work, especially at Sebring.

Steve113

Skeer - he is saying Number 3 in Cause is one of the contributing reasons....... he isnt saying its the solution

Oliver911

While I agree with Marc...I think the problem boils down to the sensibility of the driver. Marc and I had a conversation the morning of this incident where essentially we both agreed that regardless of how much money we had in the bank, our decision making process for initiating a pass would not change. The same cannot be said for some drivers. PCA needs to address this issue which is a safety issue. Unfortunately, If this were a two car incident, nobody would be talking about this. I wonder how many other incidents in this run group haven’t received attention because they weren’t “big” enough yet were equal displays of stupidity. Because this zero probability pass attempt happened on the first lap, the “pinball” effect occurred, and a large incident ensued.


Solutions: 1. I have advocated for ABS braking as a mandatory requirement for the cup group...people complained that it was too expensive (which is laughable). They also stated that it was an added skill that would need to be mastered. I would argue that the results of the race would not change, however there may be a decrease in lap times. At these speeds ABS is a cushion that we need. 2. A higher level license. Requirements TBD.

As much as I enjoy driving my lowly 996 cup, I am certainly considering a move to another racing class where the potential for carnage is less.

sleder

Marc, well stated take a look at the registration numbers over the previous 5 years. This race in the Cup Car group is alternatively known as the carnage fest. That is not what Racing is. That is not nor should not be what PCA Racing should be. If you leave after an incident as such you should not be allowed back, after 13 months or EVER. The destruction of other peoples property should not be tolerated by the sanctioning group. We collectively must do a better job with stupidity like this!

SkeerRacing

I know and am fully agreeing.

Nizer

Supporter of ABS and installed on my car, but reality is while it would've helped in a number of past incidents it wouldn't have in this one. Bottom line, ABS can't cure stupid.

Asshattery in Cup class has been discussed ad nauseam for years. Just search Clarke's posts for the last five years. It should be noted that asshattery is not exclusive to Cup class. I've seen it in virtually all classes, including the hallowed E Class.

Tired of reading about, talking about, and posting about it. Ball is in PCA's court to make a change.