TXE36

That's the engineer in me talking. I don't buy for a second that there are not political inputs into those time limits - it isn't all science. It puts organizations into a pickle because, as you said, they have no basis to override the limit without liability. Rent seekers and lawyers abound in this society and it would be naive to think it's not happening to an extent here.

I suspect with street cars, the public simply would not tolerate it. I also suspect old belt failures haven't occurred with enough frequency to justify replacement intervals. Who knows, it is all speculation.

ProCoach

I think the already thinned instructor corps (the trend over the last ten years as organizational demands outstrip supply) will be further sapped by this pandemic. Many of the corps are at-risk groups, anyway.

I don't see novices needing Cup cars to lead their group. This is for Green group (NASA HPDE1, BMWCCA D Group) and maybe the start of Yellow group, that's it.

This whole new world is going to put a serious premium on more clear and complete (did I say MORE?) outside-of-the-car coaching in classroom, small groups and one-on-one. This is how most other successful programs, including ALL professional schools, do it.

Organizations will need to "buck up" and equip their students with what they need to stay safe OUTSIDE the car, and keep in-car instruction for tune ups and isolated, targeted, real-time feedback for both the students who want it and the instructors that still want to give it.

The issue, as I see it, is that the club organizations have loaded up their instructors with the awesome responsibility of transferring incredible, mind-numbing amounts of information to their novice students and "maintain control" to insure safety (and some instructors get off doing this, especially the latter) in lieu of car control exercises on the skid pad, autocross and on-track exercises, plus EXTENSIVE classroom and small group instruction, coaching and feedback.

In-car instruction will not go away, but other avenues must be explored, developed and refined to make what we have even better.

TXE36

The "sip out of the firehose experience" is intrinsic to classic DE instruction. I've been both the sprayee and the sprayer, and while I honestly do think it is part of the entertainment of this hobby, the pragmatist inside me thinks if this process requires sipping from a firehose, perhaps the process should be better such that it stops requiring it. After all, actually sipping from a firehose is a low margin way to quench one's thirst.

I do think car control is a weakness in the classical DE format.

RossP

Agreed. I think that before anyone gets on a track they need to do a basic car control class on a skid pad. And clubs should offer this and make it mandatory before signing up for their events. Think of it like "Hunters Safety" for Driving Events.

85Gold

I love this no in car instruction you are going to die. SCCA drivers school takes people who can have 0 track experience and buckle them into a race car The 1st lap is game on. They do have a mentor/Inst who does watch from various corners and gives station wagon rides to show the line. TNIA puts them on track with no experience and they don’t wreck their cars. I’m not saying coaching is a bad thing and it moves the learning curve faster. As I have said before riding right seat can get you killed or badly injured and I have seen the results of both happening.

Peter

T&T Racing

I did SBRS almost 20 years ago, 3-days leading to a SCCA license. The first day was getting use to the Formula Dodge single seater on the skid pad before on track. The classroom training was about 50% of each day and the friction circle was drilled into us, something PCA DE does not do and even SCCA back then. One group in the classroom and the other group on track. Instructors were observing at corners for feedback.

The limited engine rpm to start with and then upped the limit each day. There was some lead follow track exercises, threshold breaking exercises and trail braking exercises.
They covered weight transferred under braking and acceleration.

The race cars had threaded tires. The gear boxes were dog type so you needed to double clutch to shift or you learned that after lifting, you could the gear box in neutral with no damage.

There was some instruction in Dodge Neon, front wheel drive, by the instructor in the driver's seat and then switching with the student in the driver's seat, and 2 other students seating in the rear awaiting their turn in the driver's seat

I do not believe there was any point by's on track.

This is the best model to learn car control

9114609048

Best comment on RL in a long time: "You know, people used to learn how to do this all on their own... And they didn't crash, turn into a cartwheeling ball of fire or anything of the sort."

I went to Bondurant in '72. Five day course for $500. There was a lot of class room time, then we would ride along with an instructor, who showed us what he wanted. We drove school Datsun 510s and chased the instructor most of the time. I don't remember ever having an instructor riding with me. After Bondurant, I did four SCCA races in a stock Datsun 510, then moved over to the IMSA Camel GT series and figured stuff out as I went.

Bob Rouleau

Our plan is a lead car, then 3 students then a chase car. Lead and chase driven by instructors. Radios in both. In depth briefing before and after. We planned a lot more classroom time for the novice and first solo groups this even before the covid disaster. While I believe in the benefits of in-car teaching, covid says we have to adapt. What bothers me is the fact that PCA has the nerve to tell us we don't know how to do it without their guidance. This is excess risk avoidance by PCA the same as the harness rules. The harness in my car gets a helluva lot less use than the 3 points which are good for the life of the car. Sheer nonsense. So this and other rules imposed by overzealous risk managers are making things difficult which is why we may run non PCA events from here on. The extra cost for insurance will be more than offset by the revenue we get from the novice drivers. To the comment about wear and tear on a cup car, use your daily instead. The speed in lead and follow wouldn't tax a Chevy Cruz!

ProCoach

And you WON Sebring shortly after. More likely due to your talent and DISCIPLINE than your training, but still...

I autocrossed for two years before I went to a low key Ferrari Club track event at Roebling Road. A fast track. A customer of mine (I was a Ferrari mechanic at the time) threw me the keys to his ex-GM Chief Designer Chuck Jordan’s 250 GT/L and turned me loose for two days. Before I went out for the first time, one of my mentors, Ferrari dealer Steve Barney, leaned into the drivers side window and said “you better treat this thing like a gun. Because if it ever goes off, you’ll wish you were dead...”

Effective mentoring and coaching...

LuigiVampa

I started out in track in a 944 with low power and no nannies. People come to the track now in brand new high horsepower cars with nannies that save them from doing stupid things and think they are driving well.

At PCA race weekends I work the entire weekend with my coach using only video and data and I find it extremely useful. I've coached intermediate drivers using lead follow with good results.

I still wonder how these brand new "I want to go fast drivers" will do in their really fast cars, with all the nannies, without someone sitting right seat.

Peter - you focus on out of car coaching. How many of your clients are first time drivers and how does that work out?

basil2000

My 1st track experience was at spring mountain for the corvette owners class. It was lead follow. Instructor followed by 3 students and it was an awesome experience. Everyone in the group had time driving behind the instructor.The instructors were awesome and I’m not sure how they did it but they were able to instruct from the front. We spent time on the skid pad which was the most eye opening exercise that we did. I think this method can work great but my question is how many instructors could teach this way. These guys were amazing to drive as fast as they were and speak into a mic while looking in their rear view mirror. I really credit this course with giving me a great foundation for further learning.

Kevin Fennell

I think that some of you have not ridden right seat in a 600+ whp car at COTA for a students first ever session when you say that students will be OK for sure on their own. Maybe without the instructor in the car they will drive more carefully? But I have had to do a lot of yelling at students to brake at T12 and to not rotate into the wall at T10 and 19...

NaroEscape

I echo TXE36 concerns here about lack of in car instruction. In lead follow, how do you see if the student has both hands on the wheel? How do you know they’re not fiddling with the radio, AC, cell phone. Are they seeing flag stations? Are they just coasting around the track the whole time or are they accelerating, braking, turning at the right points? And if one person in the 2-3 car lead/follow is terrified to be out there (or not paying attention) doing 30mph, doesn’t that ruin the experience for the other 1 or 2 people in the group?

Then there’s training of the instructors. Reading Peter’s explanation on how it’s done, none of the PCA instructors would just “know” how to do all that (I certainly wouldn’t) , they would need to be trained. How fast do they go? What if one group catches another? How do you “hurry up” slow drivers? There would need to be a lot of planning and coordination on how to do it right so the students actually LEARN something instead of just touring around the track. How would the debrief instruction look? Do all the instructors have to report back to a classroom instructor? “car 125 was going slow and missing turns, you need to talk to them, because my run group is going out now and I want to drive”. Or do they get with the students one on one after the session...thus potentially missing their own.. And who would train them? It took years to put together the current training program and get it rolled out to the regions. We already put a lot of responsibility and work on our chief instructors, who’s going to do all this?

what about capacity? You are now effectively doubling the number of cars in track so you need to halve the number of students so you don’t end up in trains. In our local club, green/newbie group is always a sell out...our limitation is usually enough instructors, with many taking 2 students (different run groups). We run two instructed groups (green, blue). How would the logistics of that work?

Radios. Does every club have enough radios? Doubtful. Most rent the track radios. 10 small lead follow groups means 20 radios. Who has that many?

And as mentioned, instructor cars. I can tell you, I certainly wouldn’t do lead follow in our race car. And a large number of our instructors are racers. Or they come to the event just to instruct and not drive and won’t take their street car/truck on the track. Not to mention talking on a handheld while driving would be a challenge.

Keep in mind, the examples being used of where it works are for profit instructor schools, where the instructors are professionally trained and get paid to do this. PCA is volunteer, our instructors are doing this as a courtesy to “give back” to the program. Who’s going to have time to make all this happen and be consistent with it? As I mentioned, we already put a lot of responsibility on the CI and classroom instructors. Plus, most that do enjoy instructing really enjoy the one on one interaction with the student and satisfaction of seeing them progress. That would be lost in lead-follow. It becomes very impersonal, which may further de-incentivize people to instruct.

I could go on, but you get the point. IMO, this isn’t something that you can just flip a switch and make happen.

Matt Romanowski

There are a lot of interesting comments in this thread. For folks who want to implement lead follow, I'd suggest getting in touch with the guys who actually ran the schools that did lead follow. Guys like Terry Earwood, Bruce MacInnnes, Phil Lombardi, Dennis Macchio, Lee Charpentier, and a ton of others. These guys ran the schools doing lead follow every day for years and decades. I would guess they have have time right now to do some consulting and help regions put together an effective plan for handling instruction out of car.

Naroscape - it was at Lime Rock a long time ago, in a Dodge Neon, doing 100 mph with a SBRS instructor on the downhill while he was steering with his knee, drinking a small can of Coke, talking on the radio that I realized how good some of those guys were! The radios don't have to be licensed band radios - you can get usable units for this kind of stuff for less than $50 each.

NaroEscape

LOL. As I said, professional instructors!