Matt Romanowski

But we are not instructing professionals. I'm guessing a green group lead follow on the the downhill is probably a 70 mph experience.

Veloce Raptor

The Ron Fellows Corvette school does a great job using radios. However, they also run windows up and AC on all the time. Radios don't work very well when groups mandate windows down, which PCA and most other groups do in the US.

ProCoach

That is abundantly clear.

I think some are just asking what other effective, proven ways exist to inculcate knowledge and information, primarily to novices.

That’s it. This is one of those ways.

Matt, while Phil, Lee and especially Bruce did this well and for a long time, I’d go to the source directly, Terry Earwood, Skip Barber’s Chief Instructor for decades.

If anyone would like an introduction or contact info, PM me.

LV, you got me. It’s been two or three years since I had a bone-stock novice, and because of the format of the school, I rode with him pretty much the whole time. He was driving a Mini Cooper JCW and he scared me!

NYoutftr

Coming from student point of view.

I didn't attend any DE events last year, but intended on two or three this year.
I am in yellow, likely to get signed off for solo at next event (based on last event debrief).

Can I ask, what would a format change like the above do to track time?

Would it still be divided evenly between all run groups, novice to instructor?

Would there be multi groups of three lead/follow, staggered at different point on the track to maximize track time?

Thanks
D

Bob Rouleau

We do not anticipate reducing track time. The Novice group will get the usual 4 sessions per day. With covid in effect we expect fewer participants than usual which might allow us to combine run groups giving more track time for all. Our track limits us 30 cars on at a time (noise rules). Six groups of three novices with lead and follow cars for each group of 3 hits our max of 30. Within the groups there will be some who are slower than others. After the first session we will re-order the groups to put the slower grouping together at the rear of the parade. The idea is lead and follow to teach the line, braking points and the like. Proper inputs will be taught in off track sessions. Not as good as in-car but the best we can do under the circumstances. Again, what annoys me is that PCA deems that well organized regions are incapable of handling this without guidance from on high.

We can rent radios from our track so that isn't a problem. I still prefer in car teaching but we have to adapt.

Regards,

Sirenty

I agree strongly with this. When I started doing track days, it was with the local BMW group. Every day, they’d devote a session for each group for on track exercises, from playing leap frog or driving the whole track offline for the lower groups, to doing the whole track driving side by side or without brakes for the upper ones. I thought these exercises were invaluable, especially the no brakes. I threw it into a couple corners thinking I wasn’t going to make it cause I didn’t scrub off enough speed, but I did make it and learned how fast you really can take some corners. I’ve also come to appreciate the side by side and offline exercises as I’ve driven with other clubs. Each group at BMW also had dedicated, mandatory time each day to go the skid pad.

When I joined the PCA group, I was surprised they didn’t do this. No on track exercises and skid pad was optional and up to the student to sign up for. The difference in approach was quite evident when driving on track, with some drivers in white and even black not being very comfortable going offline, side by side, or keeping speed up when not driving “the line.” I think one of the main places this is evident is promotions from white, with solo zone passing, to black, with solo open passing. Is the advanced solo group really the time to start getting used to being offline anywhere or exploring new parts of the track? Our group did start to try to do white exercises with open passing, with instructors in car and on track, to get them ready for black but National killed that.

Driving in the rain also made it clear who put in the time at the skidpad. People from BMW DEs or ones I had seen at the skidpad a lot were out having a blast while still keeping speed reasonably up, while the rest either slowed down a ton or didn’t even go out.

I’ve brought this up with the CIs a couple times and while they agree exercises are a good idea, my impression is they don’t want to take away anyone’s drive time. However, skid pad scores have become a requirement for moving up groups, which is good. Since I became an instructor, I’ve tried to bring some of what I did at the BMW DEs to my students. I make them sign up for the skidpad each day, and go down with them to watch and discuss with the skidpad instructor. If I think they are soon to be promoted, I’ll make them do some of the exercises, like drive offline for several laps and work on speed. I still wish it was club mandated though, even if just for blue and green.

ProCoach

Great post and valuable observations.

Manifold

Good discussion. Bottom line (up front) is that the virus problem isn't going away any time soon, and if we want this sport which we love to survive, we need to adapt and find new ways to keep it going. Those new ways won't be as good in some aspects, but they may be better in some aspects, and the new ways might even prove to be better overall - we need to keep open minds.

I've had two experiences with lead/follow. My first was my first ever track day at the MB Driving Academy at Lime Rock. The day was a mix of exercises and on-track sessions. The instructors were all pro racers. All of us novices were divided into groups based on how we did with the exercises (but they didn't tell us how much we sucked, they just grouped us). For the lead/follow sessions on track, the instructor was in front and there were about three of us behind. The instructors talked to us through our car radios (but they couldn't hear us), and I could swear that the instructors had eyes in the backs of their heads, because they seemed to pick up every error we made that would be visible from outside the car. Though we were novices, the instructors challenged us, and I recall hitting close to 135 mph on the front straight. In retrospect, seems like a slightly scary format for novices, but one absolute rule was DO NOT turn off the ESC, and it seems like MB had a good safety record with the program, otherwise they wouldn't keep doing it for years. The one time where I really do think there was unnecessary risk was a session where there were two novices in the car for the lead/follow, but it was optional to be in the right seat or not. Was the lead/follow format as good as in-car instruction? I'd say no, but it was still pretty good, and it had the advantage of allowing more students per instructor, plus there was some fun involved in driving as a group. The whole experience definitely got me hooked on the track thing, which has provided a high ratio of fun/$ for many years now (despite the number of $ being high!).

My second experience with lead/follow was at NJMP. I was there as an instructor, but not driving the pace car, so I didn't really have any assigned instructing responsibilities. But I wanted to be helpful, so I jumped in the car with a couple of novices for the lead/follow sessions, and I was pretty appalled at what I witnessed. There was no radio communication at all, the students weren't well prepared for the lead/follow sessions, and the pace car kept ramping up his pace until the car right behind could barely keep up, with the other cars falling farther and farther behind. It wasn't a good learning experience for the students at all (one student was so frustrated that he was going to go home early, which is why I jumped in his car to salvage his day), and I'd say it was quite risky. I vowed never to return to one of their events in that format again.

So overall I'd say there are better and worse ways to do lead/follow, with the better ways being pretty good and the worse ways being quite bad. While organizations like PCA, Chin, etc. aren't staffed with pro drivers as instructors, I do think their instructors could be trained to do a good job with lead/follow, provided that there's proper radio communication, proper pre-track guidance about the format, and the track sessions are complemented with exercises like skidpad, slalom, and maybe virtual classrooms.

mglobe

Dumb question: How would the radio thing work? Are we assuming helmets on and some sort of headset in the helmet with a PTT button? I have no experience with lead-follow for novices, and my only car-paddock and car-car communications experience is with installed racing radios with PTT on the wheel.

911therapy

Truth is an absolute defense to a defamation claim.

As a lawyer, I resemble your remark.

Veloce Raptor

The ones at the Fellows school are wired into the car's sound system. And students really don't have much need to use the mic unless they have a serious problem. Instructors do all the talking. But again, windows are closed at all times

Matt Romanowski

Just saw this on doing lead/follow. Looks like it would be a good info session and give people something to run with https://event.webinarjam.com/register/15/pq1gvhp

Matt Romanowski

I'm pretty sure it's more than just Terry that can give people a great consultation and best practices for lead/follow. Some of those guys had 20+ years worth of experience working at SBRS, driving the cars, leading the groups, and are still actively doing it with other groups.

ProCoach

Matt, again, it’s best to go to the source. As an SBRS instructor teaching with the program on and off since 1996, that’s what I’d recommend.



It’s one thing to do it as part of the High Performance Driving, Intro to Racing and Three-Day racing school curriculums, and another to be able to speak to the person who built that curriculum.

As a CI for a Region, you should know that.

Terry is a great resource and would be the best person to speak to. And he will share not only the practice, but the methodology.

I hope you’ll sign up for the MSF Webinar on Lead-Follow best practices. Should be interesting.

Clearly, other organizations are already ahead of the curve...

Locker537

Is 1:1 instruction with a driver and instructor inside a vehicle really the challenge regarding COVID-19 and social distancing?

The classroom time, the bathrooms/facilities, the interactions through technical inspection, all give me more pause in terms of exposure compared to sitting in a car with one person for a weekend.

I remain hopeful that we will be back on track this year.