No Lead and Follow for Novice Drivers at DE???
05-15-2020, 09:55 AM
#1
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
No Lead and Follow for Novice Drivers at DE???
We have been informed that PCA will not allow "Lead and Follow" for the Green run group at DE. Since in car instruction is a non starter due to the damn virus we planned on the lead and follow method using a lead car, two students and a chase car then a lead car etc. The lead and chase cars driven by instructors would have radios.
Note that lead and follow is used by the PCNA driving school at Barber.
Can anyone tell me why PCA has banned this ?
Without a novice group we will severely hamper the growth of our club as well as disappointing a lot of newcomers.
Because of this rule we are contemplating running a non-pca event.
So -1 Anyone know why this weird new rule? (No explanation. was given).
- 2 Any other regions planning on ditching PCA and running private events in spite of slightly higher insurance costs?
Best,
Note that lead and follow is used by the PCNA driving school at Barber.
Can anyone tell me why PCA has banned this ?
Without a novice group we will severely hamper the growth of our club as well as disappointing a lot of newcomers.
Because of this rule we are contemplating running a non-pca event.
So -1 Anyone know why this weird new rule? (No explanation. was given).
- 2 Any other regions planning on ditching PCA and running private events in spite of slightly higher insurance costs?
Best,
The following users liked this post:
Veloce Raptor (05-15-2020)
05-15-2020, 10:20 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
A great question.
The following 4 users liked this post by mmuller:
05-15-2020, 10:27 AM
#4
Rennlist Hoonigan
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
which cost no drachmas
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
^^That is my understanding. Insurance.
I would say to run the events under a different group like suggested. I think with some planning and focus, there is a way to do lead/follow with great success. There is some great talk about it in some FB groups.
I would say to run the events under a different group like suggested. I think with some planning and focus, there is a way to do lead/follow with great success. There is some great talk about it in some FB groups.
05-15-2020, 10:27 AM
#5
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,733
Received 2,897 Likes
on
1,698 Posts
Wow. That is an opportunity missed.
Clearly, the folks that made this decision did not educate themselves enough, if at all, on a tested, proven system, one that has been in place in the most respected professional schools for almost four decades. Or, they need to find another insurance carrier...
The major challenge of a proper lead-follow exercise, at least the one incorporated into the Skip Barber professional schools, is to equip the novice students with more extensive, basic and foundational information BEFORE the exercise.
Also, make the exercise operational details, outline, goals and objectives MUCH more clear before the exercise begins.
Typically, several groups of one instructor (with a radio connected to a net that includes other lead instructors and some trackside instructor-observers) leading three or four students, with the opportunity for the student “column” to circulate so everyone gets “time” behind the lead instructor car.
Several groups can accommodate each other, even on short courses like Lime Rock Park, without difficulty.
Disappointing. PCA has the chance to lead, but instead relies on “this is the way we’ve always done it, so we can’t go outside of that box” way of parochial thinking. Or again, time to call another insurance carrier.
Biggest challenge for the groups already DOING THIS NOW is identifying instructors capable of a) all the demands required to drive quickly, observe and note opportunities for improvement and maintain spatial awareness to do this training and b) training the classroom instructors, trackside observation instructors and lead instructor car drivers in how to do this in a coordinated, yet challenging, valuable and fun way do the students.
As a longtime member of Skip Barber instructor corps, and having made detailed studies of other professional schools (not just ride and drive programs, which is what the PCA group that made this decision is thinking of and basing their decision on), I know that the tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of drivers that have gone through both their racing and high performance driving programs have profited immensely from these drills and that it had added to the accumulation of “best execution of fundamental skills.” Without a right seat resource holding their hand and having them become dependent on external cues...
Clearly, the folks that made this decision did not educate themselves enough, if at all, on a tested, proven system, one that has been in place in the most respected professional schools for almost four decades. Or, they need to find another insurance carrier...
The major challenge of a proper lead-follow exercise, at least the one incorporated into the Skip Barber professional schools, is to equip the novice students with more extensive, basic and foundational information BEFORE the exercise.
Also, make the exercise operational details, outline, goals and objectives MUCH more clear before the exercise begins.
Typically, several groups of one instructor (with a radio connected to a net that includes other lead instructors and some trackside instructor-observers) leading three or four students, with the opportunity for the student “column” to circulate so everyone gets “time” behind the lead instructor car.
Several groups can accommodate each other, even on short courses like Lime Rock Park, without difficulty.
Disappointing. PCA has the chance to lead, but instead relies on “this is the way we’ve always done it, so we can’t go outside of that box” way of parochial thinking. Or again, time to call another insurance carrier.
Biggest challenge for the groups already DOING THIS NOW is identifying instructors capable of a) all the demands required to drive quickly, observe and note opportunities for improvement and maintain spatial awareness to do this training and b) training the classroom instructors, trackside observation instructors and lead instructor car drivers in how to do this in a coordinated, yet challenging, valuable and fun way do the students.
As a longtime member of Skip Barber instructor corps, and having made detailed studies of other professional schools (not just ride and drive programs, which is what the PCA group that made this decision is thinking of and basing their decision on), I know that the tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of drivers that have gone through both their racing and high performance driving programs have profited immensely from these drills and that it had added to the accumulation of “best execution of fundamental skills.” Without a right seat resource holding their hand and having them become dependent on external cues...
05-15-2020, 10:45 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
The current PCA DE Minimum Standards do not allow for lead/follow instruction, so at this time it is not allowed at any PCA DE event. The DE Committee is working with PTX on developing a lead/follow program. They are in the beginning stages of work and it will take time to develop, updated minimum standards, procedures for the regions and training for the instructors.
Thank you for you patience and understanding while our volunteers work on this new to us program.
Aaron
Thank you for you patience and understanding while our volunteers work on this new to us program.
Aaron
05-15-2020, 10:50 AM
#7
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Durham, NC and Virginia International Raceway
Posts: 18,733
Received 2,897 Likes
on
1,698 Posts
The current PCA DE Minimum Standards do not allow for lead/follow instruction, so at this time it is not allowed at any PCA DE event. The DE Committee is working with PTX on developing a lead/follow program. They are in the beginning stages of work and it will take time to develop, updated minimum standards, procedures for the regions and training for the instructors.
Thank you for you patience and understanding while our volunteers work on this new to us program.
Aaron
Thank you for you patience and understanding while our volunteers work on this new to us program.
Aaron
__________________
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
Trending Topics
05-15-2020, 11:34 AM
#8
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Connecticut Valley Region
Posts: 14,522
Received 3,387 Likes
on
1,625 Posts
I started talking to my region (CVR) about this over a month ago and I got the same answer.
Much of what happens at any DE or race is controlled by the insurance companies. It is the reality of engaging in a sport where there is the risk of serious injury.
Much of what happens at any DE or race is controlled by the insurance companies. It is the reality of engaging in a sport where there is the risk of serious injury.
The following 2 users liked this post by Lemming:
Bob Rouleau (05-15-2020),
Hella-Buggin' (05-18-2020)
05-15-2020, 01:03 PM
#10
It's being worked on apparently just not a change that can be made overnight at the flip of a switch apparently...
Hoping we can have it in place by August. NJMP already allows and utilizes lead/follow, it's strictly PCA.
Hoping we can have it in place by August. NJMP already allows and utilizes lead/follow, it's strictly PCA.
05-15-2020, 01:23 PM
#11
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
We can avoid the problem by simply using another insurance company. It will add some cost but nothing wem can't handle. This means running our event outside PCA.
In fact as a region we are nery happy with a number of PCA rules and the fact that PCA DE is tending towards racing practice as opposed to EDUCATION.
For example - harness rules. Rather than a simple visual inspection we are told they must be replaced every two years. The harness in my car sees daylight for about 20 days a year. On the other hand we are fine instructing in a 30 year old car with the original 3 point belts?
Personally I make a distinction between a car used for racing where contact is more likely than a DE where it is very rare. Consider that if we need all these safety rules for DE, why are regular street cars allowed? Bear in mind, in a bone stock Cayman GTS as it comes from the show-room, you can easily beat the lap time of the pole sitter at the 1999 club race on the same track.
Lastly, I submit that any experienced PCA region does not need some committee at PCA to teach us how to run lead and follow. How arrogant! Our region has been running DE events for 40 years with a stellar safety record. I suspect there are many like us.
In fact as a region we are nery happy with a number of PCA rules and the fact that PCA DE is tending towards racing practice as opposed to EDUCATION.
For example - harness rules. Rather than a simple visual inspection we are told they must be replaced every two years. The harness in my car sees daylight for about 20 days a year. On the other hand we are fine instructing in a 30 year old car with the original 3 point belts?
Personally I make a distinction between a car used for racing where contact is more likely than a DE where it is very rare. Consider that if we need all these safety rules for DE, why are regular street cars allowed? Bear in mind, in a bone stock Cayman GTS as it comes from the show-room, you can easily beat the lap time of the pole sitter at the 1999 club race on the same track.
Lastly, I submit that any experienced PCA region does not need some committee at PCA to teach us how to run lead and follow. How arrogant! Our region has been running DE events for 40 years with a stellar safety record. I suspect there are many like us.
05-15-2020, 01:25 PM
#12
Still plays with cars.
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Thread Starter
Paul, waiting until August pretty much means wiping out the novice class for the majority of our season up here in the frozen north!
05-15-2020, 01:45 PM
#13
Not saying I don't hope it is in place sooner, but our DE is August and if this is not in place and we can't have Green/Yellow then PCA divides the field by running Mid-O and NJMP Club Race on the same weekend and as a club we could get absolutely killed covering our track agreement. We would lose Green/Yellow and a good chunk of Black. Two biggest revenue makers of course.
05-15-2020, 01:47 PM
#14
We can avoid the problem by simply using another insurance company. It will add some cost but nothing wem can't handle. This means running our event outside PCA.
In fact as a region we are nery happy with a number of PCA rules and the fact that PCA DE is tending towards racing practice as opposed to EDUCATION.
For example - harness rules. Rather than a simple visual inspection we are told they must be replaced every two years. The harness in my car sees daylight for about 20 days a year. On the other hand we are fine instructing in a 30 year old car with the original 3 point belts?
Personally I make a distinction between a car used for racing where contact is more likely than a DE where it is very rare. Consider that if we need all these safety rules for DE, why are regular street cars allowed? Bear in mind, in a bone stock Cayman GTS as it comes from the show-room, you can easily beat the lap time of the pole sitter at the 1999 club race on the same track.
Lastly, I submit that any experienced PCA region does not need some committee at PCA to teach us how to run lead and follow. How arrogant! Our region has been running DE events for 40 years with a stellar safety record. I suspect there are many like us.
In fact as a region we are nery happy with a number of PCA rules and the fact that PCA DE is tending towards racing practice as opposed to EDUCATION.
For example - harness rules. Rather than a simple visual inspection we are told they must be replaced every two years. The harness in my car sees daylight for about 20 days a year. On the other hand we are fine instructing in a 30 year old car with the original 3 point belts?
Personally I make a distinction between a car used for racing where contact is more likely than a DE where it is very rare. Consider that if we need all these safety rules for DE, why are regular street cars allowed? Bear in mind, in a bone stock Cayman GTS as it comes from the show-room, you can easily beat the lap time of the pole sitter at the 1999 club race on the same track.
Lastly, I submit that any experienced PCA region does not need some committee at PCA to teach us how to run lead and follow. How arrogant! Our region has been running DE events for 40 years with a stellar safety record. I suspect there are many like us.
05-15-2020, 01:56 PM
#15
Three Wheelin'
we have to be careful here; the lead follow described earlier is Lead car, 2 student cars, Chase Car.
this works well I think. However I have seen Lead Follow also implemented by a lead car followed by 10+ student cars..... this does NOT work.
student 3 drops back a tiny bit, student 4 a bit more and student 5 onwards is on their own.
the NJMP lead follow I have seen with the drivers club is in the latter category. I dont know what PCA is planning but I hope it is in the first category