facelvega

I had a small shunt on the Nordschleife last week at the apex of Schwalbenschwanz approaching Kleine Karrusel. It was a private track day, full course, passing both sides. Sadly, my rear facing camera card was full, so no rear video.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/723896929

I did NOT signal that I was staying right, and ran the low-horsepower line in to the apex curb. Faster car behind me tried to pass in the turn, and his front right wheel contacted my left rear wheel. I saw him just before contact and steered away, but we still hit (fairly softly).

I (of course) paid for the damage to my rental car (couple of thousand). The other driver just sent me a bill for his damage (about $7,000, brand new BMW M car). I don't want to be a jerk, but I don't want to waste money either. I feel bad, because if I had better situational awareness, I would have seen him trying to pass. On the other hand, I was on line and had not waved him around, so I feel like he should not have tried a pass at apex. At track days I attend in the US, everybody fixes their own damage (but if you know something was your fault and can afford it, you try to help out the other driver). I have no idea what is typical in Europe. This is also my first shunt ever, so no experience. Those of you with more Ring experience (or more impacts), what do you think? Thanks!

ExMB

European rules!. You already admitted to not following those. Don't apply US track day rules.

stownsen914

Sent you a bill for his damage? What am I missing? Is there some rule in Europe that you are obligated to pay for damage to other people's cars?

IPGJames

Responsibility of the passing car to make a safe pass .. don’t care what country you are.

facelvega

I came with questions… seeking answers.

GREENI

I’d ignore it. He ran into you, as it was a track day and not tf there’s nothing he can do legally.
I find it quite offensive that he has asked for the money. We all know the risks of a trackday.

Frank 993 C4S

What are the passing rules and what are the rules with respect to fault and damage compensation (if any)?

ExMB

Most NBR event rules involve some sort of adherence to STVO, rules of conduct on roads. Unless modified during a private event. And in those cases its spelled out in the paperwork you signed. Its not unusual for both parties to be found at fault to a % in an incident.

stownsen914

It's hard to imagine any set of rules that would support a trackday participant deciding on his own that it's the other guy's fault and sending a bill for damage.

raspritz

Your video provides only a few clues as to what actually happened. At the moment of contact you were to the left, yet you say his right front wheel contacted your left rear. So, he was inside and behind. To me, it appears that coming into the left-hand corner you saw him trying to pass on the inside, and perhaps you slightly swerved to the left long before the apex, cutting him off. If that were the case, yes he was making a "foolish attempt at a dumb, low percentage pass" and should have yielded, but you had poor situational awareness and maybe contributed somewhat. Regardless, I have never heard of either track-day or racing "rules" that specify financial responsibility for damage, either in the USA or in Europe (where I race frequently), and checking the websites of a few tracks in Europe, I see no such "rules". The normal process is for the two drivers to talk and make an agreement; I don't think the other driver just sending you a bill has any legitimacy. As needed, the EU has a dispute arbitration process for which the link is posted on the Nurburgring website (https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/m...e2.show&lng=DE), though your profile indicates you are located in Texas, in which case that would not apply.

LexVan

May I please have your address? I have some bills I'd like to mail you. Med school tuition is due in July for my daughter's final year. Thank you.

facelvega

I found the waiver (printed below). Classically, it protects the organizers in great detail, less clear for the participants. It both says that participants are there at their own risk, but also that any liability payments should be worked out between participants.

This was a closed track, private event, insured road cars only. Passing both sides. Standard Ring use of lights: signal right = "I see you, I am staying right, pass on the left"; signal left = "I see you, I am staying left, pass on the right"; No signal = "Either I don't see you, or I am using the full track on the racing line". In a 250 HP car, I had LOTS of practice sending people around me. In this case, there was an easy passing straight just after this turn going into Kleine Karrusel, and then the long straight into Galgenkoph. While I did not expect him to try a pass at the apex of the turn, I am unhappy with myself because I turned in, and THEN looked, instead of the other way around. I have, through the years, read with interest the threads here discussing 'racing room". If this was on a straight, and I "slammed the door" , I would feel much more responsibility, but this was a curve and I was on line.

The assessment of "% of responsibility" is what I am curious about. If the mistake is all mine, I would cover his damage. If it is mutual, I would pay half his damage, if he pays half of mine. If he made a foolish attempt at a dumb, low percentage pass, I can tell him to pound sand. Part of our concept of justice is a "jury of your peers". I figured this was the best place to ask for knowledgeable judgement.

THE WAIVER:

Contractual Agreement / Liability Disclaimer / Participation Conditions for Trackdays Events powered by Trackdays.de

Description of Event

We offer driver training on a race circuit or a presentation-/test circuit where public traffic is excluded. The circuit is a race track specifically selected by relevant safety aspects in mind. The purpose of the event is to optimize driving techniques along with control of the vehicle.
The aim of the event is not lap timing and not reaching top speeds. Overtaking is allowed on the left AND right side.

Conditions for Participation

The event is open only to standard street-/road legal cars. Driver age must be 18 years or older, valid driver license is required.
Every vehicle participating has to be in good technical condition. It is not the responsibility of the event promoter to check whether the driver is the owner of the vehicle to be used or whether he has obtained a waiver from the owner of the vehicle. The driver is responsible to check whether and to what extend the car is insured by the car insurance company against damages on track / at the car and has to confirm it in writing by the insurance company. Without any doubt the driver(s) enter(s) into full legal responsibility according to this agreement accepting such conditions without any exclusion.

Miscellaneous Conditions

Use of seat belts is mandatory during driving on the track. Each passenger MUST wear a crash helmet when driving on the track and the minimum age of passenger is 16 years, maximum 2 persons per car. It is strictly forbidden to reverse one’s car on the track, to drive on the track in the opposite direction! It is absolutely essential that all the instructions of all the personnel involved in the organization of the event are obeyed. In addition to the charge for participation, each participant shall bear the operating costs for the vehicle(s) to be used, along with the costs of travel, board and lodging. The event promoter reserves the right to undertake all changes to the event occasioned by force majeure (Act of God), for safety reasons, or in response to requirements imposed by official bodies, or even to cancel the event when this step is required due to extraordinary circumstances, without accepting any obligation of any kind to provide compensation. This also applies to shortage of driving time due to bad weather (f.e. fog on track) or repair time (f.e. necessary guard rail change caused by accidents). The event shall take place irrespective of weather, with no participation fee being refunded if the participant should fail to appear.
In case the official owner/holder of the track cancels the event the paid participation fees will be refunded.

Liability Disclaimer

Participants hereby declare irrevocably and agree to be courteous, sportsmanlike and not to surpass one’s possibilities and those of one’s car – also participants hereby declare that their participation on the event is at their own danger and at their own risk. They bear sole responsibility under civil and criminal law for all damages caused by themselves or by the vehicle used, unless any exclusion of liability is agreed under the terms of this agreement or the conditions of the event. Conversely, the event promoter accepts absolutely no liability in respect of participants for any personal, material or property damages, either prior to, during or after the event. On submission of this application, participants formally waive any right - with the exclusion of recourse to law, in respect of themselves, their legal successors or those persons for whose maintenance they are liable for any damages or accidents suffered in connection with the event - to initiate proceedings or seek recourse from and against the event promoter, his assistants and instructors, the circuit owner and its operators, other circuit operators and its staff, including circuit marshals and other companies engaged, authorities, racing services and any other persons associated with the organization of the event. Furthermore by this declaration signatories release all of the above-mentioned parties completely from any claims made by third parties in the event that such claims include the above-mentioned parties in co-liability and respect of any accident caused by one of the undersigned, or any other event resulting in damages. In respect of any damages caused by participants to others or to the circuit site and its facilities during the event (i.e. guard rails/crash barriers), participants undertake to settle full associated costs immediately with the persons or party harmed directly on location or after received the invoice from the Organizer. Each participant is himself responsible for liability waivers (preferably in writing) in respect of such claims as may be made by an assistant against the relevant participant on whose behalf the assistant is acting. The event promoter/s, including all associated clubs, firms, associations and organizers disclaim any responsibility in case of robbery. Otherwise, the event promoter is only liable to the extent that no exclusion of liability is agreed by means of this agreement’s specification and designation. On submission of her/his application, each participant bindingly acknowledges this liability waiver and the conditions of participation fully and without any restriction.

I do understand the above terms entirely. I also ensure that I own a valid driver license for the participating car, that this car is road-legal, insured and technically in perfect and road secure state. I hereby sign in into this contractual agreement:

Disclaimer has to be signed personally at day of event.

85Gold

""Passing both sides. Standard Ring use of lights: signal right = "I see you, I am staying right, pass on the left"; signal left = "I see you, I am staying left, pass on the right"; No signal = "Either I don't see you, or I am using the full track on the racing line".""

By this if you didn't signal then he is 100% at fault.

Peter

will968

If it was a race, blame would go to the passing car because you're not even close to being side-by-side. You're already at the apex and it would be pretty obvious what your intensions are before that point. Send them back a bill for 7K and put it behind you. This driver is in denial.

facelvega

I found the Catalyst video, it gives a better view of car placement.

https://vimeo.com/manage/videos/724035325

The line I was trying to follow, turn in point on the right side at the end of the rumbles, across from (B):