Summit Race!
09-21-2022, 11:53 AM
#61
Perfect Angel
Rennlist Member
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This T10 SPB get together was posted on youtube a few days ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-C62YbbipU&t=82s Kind of a cheeky dive bomb which, by PCA standards, would have been blamed on the passing car. It takes time to learn who'll give up a turn and who'll make life difficult for you. Pretty ambitious pass at best.
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09-21-2022, 12:23 PM
#63
Drifting
09-21-2022, 12:53 PM
#64
Rennlist Member
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09-21-2022, 03:09 PM
#67
Rennlist Member
Jeff I believe you are sincere but you have to understand that some of the ECR branded drivers really really pissed people off this weekend. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd never seen on track behavior like that. I've not been to ECR but if this is how you guys play with each other on that track you need to keep it there. Summit Point is not a place where you can push each other off track, run off into the wide open prairie and resume racing. You have to know the track you are racing and respect it. There are huge consequences in several turns at SP. Huge.
It's one thing to be fast but reckless is something else entirely.
You are correct. It's not the entire ECR stable. I just watch Dan's video. That's a great example of respectfully moving through traffic. He presented himself, he never forced it, if it wasn't right he backed out and set it up for the next opportunity. That is nice driving.
Unfortunately ECR has earned the reputation that proceeded you. And you only solidified it over the past weekend.
For example, at WG there was a situation where there were three cars nose to tail coming up out of the boot (t7). If you get a run in 7 its a good place to pass. We'll use cars A,B and C in that order. Car A is an ECR car and the bad actor in this situation. Car A is leading, car B gets a run and goes to the inside up the hill. Car A sees this and in an overt block squeezes car B almost into the grass which would have caused a serious accident as anyone knows who has wrecked there. In the process of car A trying to run car B off the track car C sneaks up the outside (on the traditional racing line). Car A notices this and in another egregious blocking move he abandons his squeeze on car B and throws his car from track right all the way across the track to block car C and then for good measure brake checks car C into T8.
This is not racing.
It's bullying. It's not impressive. It doesn't earn respect.
This is why ECR is getting so much blowback right now. It's been building. The paddock has had enough.
I do appreciate your willingness to post here and have the discussion and I do think you are listening. Good on you.
None of us are perfect.
Except me. My cat is pretty awesome too.
It's one thing to be fast but reckless is something else entirely.
You are correct. It's not the entire ECR stable. I just watch Dan's video. That's a great example of respectfully moving through traffic. He presented himself, he never forced it, if it wasn't right he backed out and set it up for the next opportunity. That is nice driving.
Unfortunately ECR has earned the reputation that proceeded you. And you only solidified it over the past weekend.
For example, at WG there was a situation where there were three cars nose to tail coming up out of the boot (t7). If you get a run in 7 its a good place to pass. We'll use cars A,B and C in that order. Car A is an ECR car and the bad actor in this situation. Car A is leading, car B gets a run and goes to the inside up the hill. Car A sees this and in an overt block squeezes car B almost into the grass which would have caused a serious accident as anyone knows who has wrecked there. In the process of car A trying to run car B off the track car C sneaks up the outside (on the traditional racing line). Car A notices this and in another egregious blocking move he abandons his squeeze on car B and throws his car from track right all the way across the track to block car C and then for good measure brake checks car C into T8.
This is not racing.
It's bullying. It's not impressive. It doesn't earn respect.
This is why ECR is getting so much blowback right now. It's been building. The paddock has had enough.
I do appreciate your willingness to post here and have the discussion and I do think you are listening. Good on you.
None of us are perfect.
Except me. My cat is pretty awesome too.
Would you PM me regarding the WG incident? I would like to know who it was.
Myself and ECR ownership are listening. We are going to add more race craft days as well as etiquette to the program. I assure you we are more closely going to monitor what is happening each race. Additionally we are going to make a point to communicate a bit more with PCA as well as the other racers. In the future please PM me or email me with concerns or suggestions. jstrimel@eaglescanyon.com
I mean what else can I say. The proof will be in our response right?
09-21-2022, 06:17 PM
#68
Nordschleife Master
Despite all the negativity, PCA is a great place to race. This year I did 5 events, 14 total races with zero contact. And that’s in the infamous cup car group! Heck in my 18 years of PCA club racing I’ve had car-to-car contact exactly one time, and it was fairly minor.
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
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09-21-2022, 06:39 PM
#69
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Despite all the negativity, PCA is a great place to race. This year I did 5 events, 14 total races with zero contact. And that’s in the infamous cup car group! Heck in my 18 years of PCA club racing I’ve had car-to-car contact exactly one time, and it was fairly minor.
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
I do believe the incident rate has gone up, based on the last ten years of personal observation at over a hundred club races from the fences and grandstands, not to mention reviewing terabytes of on-track video from these events. It's important to note that the increase I've observed is not just present for PCA Club Racing, either. Not by a long shot. IMSA and SRO racing has been particularly hard hit this year (pun intended) and SCCA, NASA, GridLife and others have seen this increase.
Patterns of behavior need to be identified, tracked and action taken. Not enough to have a "come to Jesus" meeting on the pit lane.
Otherwise, aberrant behavior, entitlement, not enough margin left and a continuing decline in on-track standards and etiquette will occur. Just my .02 as a longtime and widespread participant and observer of the sport.
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
09-21-2022, 07:17 PM
#70
Again, when minor contact becomes acceptable, more significant contact is not far behind. Especially in large and competitive classes. From what I see, PCA is accepting more minor contact without handing out punishment to those that initiate it....
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09-21-2022, 11:12 PM
#71
Rennlist Member
I don't post here often, but pay attention as I do 3-5 PCA races per year, typically. I'm a mid-pack guy, and I try to be a good racer on track. I've met great people, raced with awesome people, and have made my share of idiot mistakes, which I've tried to apologize for live and in person whenever possible. I hope to do it for a few more years
Several years ago, I got 13-ed out of the first sprint race at Sebring, when I was still racing GTB-1. Small bobble in 3, got hit from behind, my fault, both cars were dented but fine to race. I was done for the weekend, which was really a downer, having come from Chicago to race. This incident caused me to write polite entreaties to Brian and Vicki to consider a rule change to allow continuance in a weekend if there was fault, minor damage and a lack of egregious contact. After a time, this policy was adopted, to the betterment of us all. Not claiming credit, just got the ball rolling.
I thought that made sense, but now there seems to be a lot of incidental (and worse) contact that goes without comment or discipline. At Road Atlanta last year (racing in SP3), I got hit between 6 and 7 by a car in a different class, in a move that had zero chance of success. Driver door tire marks and dent, finished the race, but didn't report it because I had a plane to catch. Shame on me.
NJMP last month, got tagged in a sprint race in turn 1, lap 1, same deal, dent and rub-out, ironically the incident was caused by the same guy from Atlanta who decided to go four-wide in corner 1 on the first lap. He wasn't the guy that hit me, but the guy that did and I continued racing (different classes). When the race was over, I went to the tower, waited with my video, and reported the incident, per the rules. I wasn't angry, just annoyed, wasn't going to repeat my Atlanta mistake, and assumed the other driver would follow suit. He didn't, and I assume they tracked him down, because he came to our tent, introduced himself, gave his side of the story, we talked, and that was that. I don't know if there was discipline involved.
Here's the point- this is our program, and we have to self-police, and follow the rules. There's a lot of slack given in PCA, and a lot of great guys racing, but things are gonna happen. When they do, let's follow the rules and act like adults. By that I mean, hit somebody incidentally, the rule is to report it immediately following the race. Let the Stewards sort it out. Got a problem with blocking or general asshattery, take it to the Stewards, let them sort it out. Be a gentleperson (you saw what just happened there). When you're racing hard, trying to overtake or (in my case) being overtaken, what's better than two people that give each other room, and respect, and seek each other out afterward to shake hands and talk about how much fun that was.
I'm really not sure why I'm even doing this, except to say that I love PCA racing, and want to see more people continue to enjoy it. Take a deep breath when you get in the car. Have some fun. Drink with your buddies. Hope to see you all at Sebring.
Several years ago, I got 13-ed out of the first sprint race at Sebring, when I was still racing GTB-1. Small bobble in 3, got hit from behind, my fault, both cars were dented but fine to race. I was done for the weekend, which was really a downer, having come from Chicago to race. This incident caused me to write polite entreaties to Brian and Vicki to consider a rule change to allow continuance in a weekend if there was fault, minor damage and a lack of egregious contact. After a time, this policy was adopted, to the betterment of us all. Not claiming credit, just got the ball rolling.
I thought that made sense, but now there seems to be a lot of incidental (and worse) contact that goes without comment or discipline. At Road Atlanta last year (racing in SP3), I got hit between 6 and 7 by a car in a different class, in a move that had zero chance of success. Driver door tire marks and dent, finished the race, but didn't report it because I had a plane to catch. Shame on me.
NJMP last month, got tagged in a sprint race in turn 1, lap 1, same deal, dent and rub-out, ironically the incident was caused by the same guy from Atlanta who decided to go four-wide in corner 1 on the first lap. He wasn't the guy that hit me, but the guy that did and I continued racing (different classes). When the race was over, I went to the tower, waited with my video, and reported the incident, per the rules. I wasn't angry, just annoyed, wasn't going to repeat my Atlanta mistake, and assumed the other driver would follow suit. He didn't, and I assume they tracked him down, because he came to our tent, introduced himself, gave his side of the story, we talked, and that was that. I don't know if there was discipline involved.
Here's the point- this is our program, and we have to self-police, and follow the rules. There's a lot of slack given in PCA, and a lot of great guys racing, but things are gonna happen. When they do, let's follow the rules and act like adults. By that I mean, hit somebody incidentally, the rule is to report it immediately following the race. Let the Stewards sort it out. Got a problem with blocking or general asshattery, take it to the Stewards, let them sort it out. Be a gentleperson (you saw what just happened there). When you're racing hard, trying to overtake or (in my case) being overtaken, what's better than two people that give each other room, and respect, and seek each other out afterward to shake hands and talk about how much fun that was.
I'm really not sure why I'm even doing this, except to say that I love PCA racing, and want to see more people continue to enjoy it. Take a deep breath when you get in the car. Have some fun. Drink with your buddies. Hope to see you all at Sebring.
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09-22-2022, 12:39 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Despite all the negativity, PCA is a great place to race. This year I did 5 events, 14 total races with zero contact. And that’s in the infamous cup car group! Heck in my 18 years of PCA club racing I’ve had car-to-car contact exactly one time, and it was fairly minor.
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
I dont believe the PCA incident rate has changed much over the years. There have been some well publicized bad events (Sebring a few years ago, Road America ~2019 in T5, now this) but most events run well and the racing is clean and hard. What has changed is the cars are much faster vs 2005 when I started and social media and in car video allows all this to be posted.
FWIW I always go meet the other people I run with in my class (GTD1). If you know the person next to you, you are much less likely to do something stupid to them.
So don’t be scared away from PCA Club Racing!
In my first year of racing I made a dumb mistake and took out another racer. That hit me hard. What the heck was I thinking? But on the good side, it gave me time to reflect on what type of amateur PCA club racer I wanted to be - on track and in the paddock. Now, I’m not a deep thinker by any stretch, but that time of reflection really helped shape my racing ever since.
Introduce yourself to other racers before battling them on track. You’ll be amazed at the difference it makes. And if you do have a car to car issue, realize that it’s actually a racer to racer issue. Cool down and then go talk about it.
09-22-2022, 05:25 PM
#75
ECR is a big group, and highly branded, so it’s easy to generalize the decisions of individuals. Unfortunately the level of aggressiveness is in the field, and is fairly contagious. My car also came away with minor damage from an aggressive cut (nothing to do with ECR), and I felt pressured to minimize it w/ the stewards. I don’t want to ruin anyone’s points race but one way to help your season podium is to not hit out-of-class cars. The sad part for me is that I know of two good drivers that are considering dropping out of ClubRacing after NJ and SP. There were a lot of complaints about a combined run group, but that and canceled events will be the inevitable outcome if our numbers continue to shrink.
edit: also, to be open/honest the event overall was a blast for me. There was great competition, collaboration, I learned a ton, and deepened friendships.
edit: also, to be open/honest the event overall was a blast for me. There was great competition, collaboration, I learned a ton, and deepened friendships.
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