FredC

this thread had potential.

Speeds5

PCA just needs to be more heavy handed towards the repeat offenders, even if the offense doesn’t end up in big damage. The gravity of the move should be taken into consideration. Just because the result is minor or no damage doesn’t mean a 13 shouldn’t be handed out.

winders

I think there should be some penalty for any contact. If it is slight maybe a 5 position penalty or a DQ. But something needs to be done to discourage light contact.

This happened at Laguna Seca a few years ago in Spec911 and there was no penalty for anyone:

ProCoach

Agree. Bottom line, contact has become too common. So fix it. I think most of the folks here on RL are not the people that need to hear this.

The issue is that rub-outs should be tracked to determine patterns of behavior. It's contact. Whether the drivers continue or not, it needs to be tracked.

Multiple contacts AT THE SAME event should result in that driver's dismissal from that event and on probation for events in the future.

Some groups assign points for contact, then place the driver on probation or suspension at specific point accumulation.

Again, just my .02

KevinA

Glad to see Tim posting on this thread, and hopefully he can pass along all of these sentiments to PCA.

I have only been racing for three seasons, but in that time have noticed an increase in the occurrence of contact, especially in the last two events (NJMP and Summit). The vast majority of the contact I see (especially in SPB) is unreported since it is often relatively incidental (i.e., a rub out, especially at the start), or is between friends who don't want to involve the stewards in an incident that two drivers have discussed between themselves and shook hands on. I can think of multiple times I have been hit and not reported it since the other drivers, whom I consider friends, would likely have received a 13. Why involve the stewards, and risk a potentially arbitrary penalty, if those involved are OK with the outcome?

Perhaps if PCA took the wishes of the driver on the receiving end of the contact into consideration, people would be more forthcoming following contact. If you are hit, but the damage is minimal (by your own definition) and you accept the other driver's apology, you have no reason to not turn in the video and report the incident. PCA can then keep track of all incidents, including minor ones and noting the gravity as suggested by Speeds5, and implement a point system as suggested by Peter. A point system can also take into account contact not involving another car, which is not addressed by the existing rules.

Frank 993 C4S

The majority of people race in PCA because of the no contact rule and (in comparison to other race series) there is a good chance that you will take your car back home without damage. That system starts breaking down when racers between themselves get to decide what is acceptable damage and what is not. If you have been hit by somebody and you have damage to your car, a 13 is not an "arbitrary" penalty. If you don't report damage to your car, you then become part of the problem.

There are PCA racers with many years of close racing experience and they have never hit anybody - it can be done regardless of what class you race in or how big the run groups are.

Jas0nn

I've always thought it was odd how little transparency there was on 13s. In my mind, this is something that should absolutely be public - doing so will give racers confidence that the system is working/being enforced, and maybe a little bit of paddock shame will help make the 13 sink in a bit more ...

Streak

100%. The not knowing yet seeing the bad actors at race after race is not confidence inspiring to say the least.

Also of those serious about points championships those ineligible due to having a 13 should have an asterisk by their name in the standings. People make financial and travel decisions based on possibly needing to get to a race weekend only to discover they didn't need to later.

13's should be public Information

ProCoach

I don't think most of the competitors and even some of the stewards really know where, how and what the original 13/13 Rule came about and what it was for.

The inaugural PCA Club Racing series started under the auspices of Alan Freidman at THIS event (Potomac Region Club Race) in 1992. https://pcaclubracing.org/how-it-began/

Alan raced with SVRA for years before that, and at the time, SVRA was very committed to avoiding contact incidents, both by instilling the best possible culture (social mixing, big brother/big sister mentoring and race group representatives had a lot to do with it) with the "big stick" reserved for the inevitable competitors that didn't "get it." It worked, for a long time...

Simply put, the 13/13 rule said that if you were a driver involved in a contact incident, either solo or with another car, you were excused from that event immediately, not permitted to enter the next series event with that sanctioning body, and on probation for 13 months. If you were involved in ANOTHER contact incident within the 13 month probationary period, your competition privileges were suspended for an additional 13 months. The reason for 13 months duration was to make sure the driver was on notice at the same event he or she had their incident in the NEXT year, then it would fall off their record. This had a lot of power when drivers were running the same schedule year to year and didn't want to miss landmark events.

There was no amelioration to the penalty or duration of probation or suspension, although some drivers involved in multiple contacts in the same session/race or egregious behavior towards the officials received MUCH more severe penalties, like suspension for 13 months or even years.

The competition director for SVRA, Charlie Gibson, actually pushed to publicize incidents and penalties in the club newsletter as case studies, but the backlash was severe, hence organizations holding that "list" close to them and NOT publicizing the list. Me? I'm FOR publicizing the list. I WANT to know who I am racing with!

I spoke with Ross Bentley on his Speed Secrets podcast when both of us were struck by what we saw together as increased entitlement, aggression and incidents on-track in all venues relatively recently. You can listen here: https://speedsecrets.com/092-peter-k...ver-etiquette/

Bottom line is the penalties rapidly ebbed as more organizations and outlets vied for the same racer pool, and organizers wanted to avoid confrontation and "running people off." First, shorter periods, like 3/6/9/13 months. Then, a points system. Then, "rub-outs" for PCA CR. With no teeth, there is no deterrent value...

The adjudication of contact incidents was never decided by one individual, but instead reviewed by two, three or more volunteers who advised the final say by the steward. It worked well for a long time, but the original value of the 13/13 rule has been lost, IMO.

38D

that already happens today for the overall standings, it’s just on the PCA site and not rennpoints

https://pcaclubracing.org/standings/class-podiums/

LuigiVampa

I understand everyone's desire for a zero contact rule, strictly enforced, with no room for exceptions, but rules like that create inequities.

The problem as I see it is that the rulings depend on the judgment of the race steward and their interpretation of the rules. This goes not just for contact, but for other issues as well. Even in F1, which is arguably the highest level of motorsports, they have trouble keeping penalties consistent from race to race.

No one likes a huge rule book, but the lack of clarity on many issues is what creates these inconsistent results. A rubout to one steward is a 13 to another.

At a recent event I had a steward telling me that an issue we were discussing was clearly laid out in the rules. The rules did not mention the issue we were discussing at all.

We need to define the rules better.

Streak

News to me. Thank you. I usually go to rennpoints. It would be nice to see the whole field though not just top 3.

Streak

Awww sh!!!!!t!

Here we go!

ProCoach

Spoken like a lawyer!

I don't see how (in bold above). If you have the Sword of Damocles hanging over you, you behave differently.

There are always exceptions, like if you can SEE the a-arm break before the crash, or oil/antifreeze down and MULTIPLE cars go off or touch.

There's always the 722-page SCCA GCR... Umm, no!

LuigiVampa

Yeah, I was expecting this reply!

When a PCA steward tells me that the issue we are talking about is in the rule book, and that issue is not even mentioned, and it's important, there is a problem.

I agree that 722 pages is crazy, but if we are all fine with being at the whim of whoever the steward is that weekend, than the conversation can stop here.