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09-23-2022, 12:46 PM
#91
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You’d be surprised at the detail in stewards guidelines!
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09-23-2022, 12:56 PM
#92
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Indeed I would Mr. Krause
In my years with PCA I have seen stewards, sometimes the same steward, make 180 degree opposite calls on more than a few very similar incidents. 9 times out of 10 these decisions are related to an incredibly vague and contradictory passing rule.
NASA has a good passing rule with diagrams and everything.
Ours is just silly. But PCA is shockingly arrogant in that they refuse to to even look outside PCA to see if there is a better idea. The passing rule debate has been raging for years.
Even worse is when a racer brings a concern to the stewards they are often ignored and sometimes rebuffed. In a membership driven organization there is never a circumstance where a fee paying member's concerns should be dismissed. Particularly when those concerns are about on track behaviors. But this is the norm at PCA.
In my years with PCA I have seen stewards, sometimes the same steward, make 180 degree opposite calls on more than a few very similar incidents. 9 times out of 10 these decisions are related to an incredibly vague and contradictory passing rule.
NASA has a good passing rule with diagrams and everything.
Ours is just silly. But PCA is shockingly arrogant in that they refuse to to even look outside PCA to see if there is a better idea. The passing rule debate has been raging for years.
Even worse is when a racer brings a concern to the stewards they are often ignored and sometimes rebuffed. In a membership driven organization there is never a circumstance where a fee paying member's concerns should be dismissed. Particularly when those concerns are about on track behaviors. But this is the norm at PCA.
Last edited by Streak; 09-23-2022 at 01:15 PM.
09-23-2022, 02:44 PM
#93
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The proposals for increased consistency and transparency in rule setting and enforcement really make sense. For this to work, the drivers need to embrace the spirit of the rules (clean, safe, contact-free racing), and the stewards need to enforce the letter.
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09-23-2022, 02:56 PM
#94
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Originally Posted by 38D
that already happens today for the overall standings, it’s just on the PCA site and not rennpoints
https://pcaclubracing.org/standings/class-podiums/
https://pcaclubracing.org/standings/class-podiums/
09-23-2022, 03:18 PM
#97
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Streak (09-23-2022)
09-23-2022, 03:56 PM
#98
https://pcaclubracing.org/standings/points-summary/
In Search, type in the class...
In Search, type in the class...
Thanks. Very "clunky". It's too bad PCA does not have/use a system as valuable, robust, and powerful as RennPoints.
09-23-2022, 04:03 PM
#99
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I don't think most of the competitors and even some of the stewards really know where, how and what the original 13/13 Rule came about and what it was for.
The inaugural PCA Club Racing series started under the auspices of Alan Freidman at THIS event (Potomac Region Club Race) in 1992. https://pcaclubracing.org/how-it-began/
Alan raced with SVRA for years before that, and at the time, SVRA was very committed to avoiding contact incidents, both by instilling the best possible culture (social mixing, big brother/big sister mentoring and race group representatives had a lot to do with it) with the "big stick" reserved for the inevitable competitors that didn't "get it." It worked, for a long time...
Simply put, the 13/13 rule said that if you were a driver involved in a contact incident, either solo or with another car, you were excused from that event immediately, not permitted to enter the next series event with that sanctioning body, and on probation for 13 months. If you were involved in ANOTHER contact incident within the 13 month probationary period, your competition privileges were suspended for an additional 13 months. The reason for 13 months duration was to make sure the driver was on notice at the same event he or she had their incident in the NEXT year, then it would fall off their record. This had a lot of power when drivers were running the same schedule year to year and didn't want to miss landmark events.
There was no amelioration to the penalty or duration of probation or suspension, although some drivers involved in multiple contacts in the same session/race or egregious behavior towards the officials received MUCH more severe penalties, like suspension for 13 months or even years.
The competition director for SVRA, Charlie Gibson, actually pushed to publicize incidents and penalties in the club newsletter as case studies, but the backlash was severe, hence organizations holding that "list" close to them and NOT publicizing the list. Me? I'm FOR publicizing the list. I WANT to know who I am racing with!
I spoke with Ross Bentley on his Speed Secrets podcast when both of us were struck by what we saw together as increased entitlement, aggression and incidents on-track in all venues relatively recently. You can listen here: https://speedsecrets.com/092-peter-k...ver-etiquette/
Bottom line is the penalties rapidly ebbed as more organizations and outlets vied for the same racer pool, and organizers wanted to avoid confrontation and "running people off." First, shorter periods, like 3/6/9/13 months. Then, a points system. Then, "rub-outs" for PCA CR. With no teeth, there is no deterrent value...
The adjudication of contact incidents was never decided by one individual, but instead reviewed by two, three or more volunteers who advised the final say by the steward. It worked well for a long time, but the original value of the 13/13 rule has been lost, IMO.
The inaugural PCA Club Racing series started under the auspices of Alan Freidman at THIS event (Potomac Region Club Race) in 1992. https://pcaclubracing.org/how-it-began/
Alan raced with SVRA for years before that, and at the time, SVRA was very committed to avoiding contact incidents, both by instilling the best possible culture (social mixing, big brother/big sister mentoring and race group representatives had a lot to do with it) with the "big stick" reserved for the inevitable competitors that didn't "get it." It worked, for a long time...
Simply put, the 13/13 rule said that if you were a driver involved in a contact incident, either solo or with another car, you were excused from that event immediately, not permitted to enter the next series event with that sanctioning body, and on probation for 13 months. If you were involved in ANOTHER contact incident within the 13 month probationary period, your competition privileges were suspended for an additional 13 months. The reason for 13 months duration was to make sure the driver was on notice at the same event he or she had their incident in the NEXT year, then it would fall off their record. This had a lot of power when drivers were running the same schedule year to year and didn't want to miss landmark events.
There was no amelioration to the penalty or duration of probation or suspension, although some drivers involved in multiple contacts in the same session/race or egregious behavior towards the officials received MUCH more severe penalties, like suspension for 13 months or even years.
The competition director for SVRA, Charlie Gibson, actually pushed to publicize incidents and penalties in the club newsletter as case studies, but the backlash was severe, hence organizations holding that "list" close to them and NOT publicizing the list. Me? I'm FOR publicizing the list. I WANT to know who I am racing with!
I spoke with Ross Bentley on his Speed Secrets podcast when both of us were struck by what we saw together as increased entitlement, aggression and incidents on-track in all venues relatively recently. You can listen here: https://speedsecrets.com/092-peter-k...ver-etiquette/
Bottom line is the penalties rapidly ebbed as more organizations and outlets vied for the same racer pool, and organizers wanted to avoid confrontation and "running people off." First, shorter periods, like 3/6/9/13 months. Then, a points system. Then, "rub-outs" for PCA CR. With no teeth, there is no deterrent value...
The adjudication of contact incidents was never decided by one individual, but instead reviewed by two, three or more volunteers who advised the final say by the steward. It worked well for a long time, but the original value of the 13/13 rule has been lost, IMO.
09-23-2022, 04:21 PM
#100
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Considering people and organizations, including PCA Club Racing, throw the term "13/13 Rule" around like water, using it to define how their program is different from "other racing," it's important to know the origins and the intent.
Also, that it worked until slackened...
It was a PCA Club Racing article about the origins of PCA Club Racing that I linked...
Also, that it worked until slackened...
It was a PCA Club Racing article about the origins of PCA Club Racing that I linked...
09-23-2022, 05:19 PM
#101
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Our problem in PCA racing is multifaceted.
1) we really don’t have any race school. Nobody is teaching rookies how to RACE, and have full situational awareness. People keep going along until something happens, then wonder why. I can't tell you how many video's I've seen where it's obvious the leading driver doesn't even know he has mirrors, or cars around them.
2) people with money and no experience jumping into fast cars as rookies is sometimes a problem. Learning to race when the consequences are much lower and speeds are slower helps build racecraft and awareness. Even SPB and SP1, the cars are substantially more capable than some cars you see in SCCA, NASA, and the endurance series. And way more expensive. PCA Club Racing (and to an extent BMWCCA) is seen as much more 'wealthy people racing' due to the cost of the cars and their repairs. So...someone with more money than sense thinks "I need to race in PCA because I have money"...
3)Nobody tells people when they do things wrong without it turning into a confrontation. Going to the steward is like going to the principal's office as a kid - you know you're in for a tongue lashing (or worse where I grew up!) so you're immediately defensive. Hot tempers because of the A-Type personalities in PCA tend to turn a teaching moment into a confrontation. Again, back to the learning part that we never really do...
We are vendors at most of the PCA, BMWCCA and NASA events, and a few SCCA ones down here in the Southeast. I race PCA pretty much exclusively - I did one SCCA race this year., my second ever in 10 years as a member...We see it all, know the players, know the local and national staffs, lots of racers, etc. Each organization has a different personality. As a long time PCA member (going on 30 years now, 15 years racing, been a region Prez, Zone rep, etc) I really don't want to race with any other organization... but I can say without a doubt that the overall personality of PCA racers is more arrogant and 'win at all costs' vs. the others. Not even close...
We see a lot of Porsche's racing in NASA. I always ask why and every single time, the answer is "because there are too many a*&holes racing in PCA and I don't want my car wrecked".. From Cup cars down to SP1's. This always shocks me since NASA is OK with 'rubbin' is racin', but they will not race PCA... I do my best to defend it but then I read threads like this, or see asshattery going on in a race I'm in and just shake my head...it's racing, sh&t happens...but so much of it is avoidable if people just respect each other.
What's funny is the best/fastest drivers among us usually have so few incidents... Coincidence??
1) we really don’t have any race school. Nobody is teaching rookies how to RACE, and have full situational awareness. People keep going along until something happens, then wonder why. I can't tell you how many video's I've seen where it's obvious the leading driver doesn't even know he has mirrors, or cars around them.
2) people with money and no experience jumping into fast cars as rookies is sometimes a problem. Learning to race when the consequences are much lower and speeds are slower helps build racecraft and awareness. Even SPB and SP1, the cars are substantially more capable than some cars you see in SCCA, NASA, and the endurance series. And way more expensive. PCA Club Racing (and to an extent BMWCCA) is seen as much more 'wealthy people racing' due to the cost of the cars and their repairs. So...someone with more money than sense thinks "I need to race in PCA because I have money"...
3)Nobody tells people when they do things wrong without it turning into a confrontation. Going to the steward is like going to the principal's office as a kid - you know you're in for a tongue lashing (or worse where I grew up!) so you're immediately defensive. Hot tempers because of the A-Type personalities in PCA tend to turn a teaching moment into a confrontation. Again, back to the learning part that we never really do...
We are vendors at most of the PCA, BMWCCA and NASA events, and a few SCCA ones down here in the Southeast. I race PCA pretty much exclusively - I did one SCCA race this year., my second ever in 10 years as a member...We see it all, know the players, know the local and national staffs, lots of racers, etc. Each organization has a different personality. As a long time PCA member (going on 30 years now, 15 years racing, been a region Prez, Zone rep, etc) I really don't want to race with any other organization... but I can say without a doubt that the overall personality of PCA racers is more arrogant and 'win at all costs' vs. the others. Not even close...
We see a lot of Porsche's racing in NASA. I always ask why and every single time, the answer is "because there are too many a*&holes racing in PCA and I don't want my car wrecked".. From Cup cars down to SP1's. This always shocks me since NASA is OK with 'rubbin' is racin', but they will not race PCA... I do my best to defend it but then I read threads like this, or see asshattery going on in a race I'm in and just shake my head...it's racing, sh&t happens...but so much of it is avoidable if people just respect each other.
What's funny is the best/fastest drivers among us usually have so few incidents... Coincidence??
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09-23-2022, 05:44 PM
#102
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Agreed. That is true of the great issue across many paddocks, both road racing and ovals. It takes a strong leader who looks at the big picture. They have to be a mix of benevolent dictator and let the patients run the asylum. Not an easy task.
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09-23-2022, 05:54 PM
#103
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Our problem in PCA racing is multifaceted.
1) we really don’t have any race school. Nobody is teaching rookies how to RACE, and have full situational awareness. People keep going along until something happens, then wonder why. I can't tell you how many video's I've seen where it's obvious the leading driver doesn't even know he has mirrors, or cars around them.
2) people with money and no experience jumping into fast cars as rookies is sometimes a problem. Learning to race when the consequences are much lower and speeds are slower helps build racecraft and awareness. Even SPB and SP1, the cars are substantially more capable than some cars you see in SCCA, NASA, and the endurance series. And way more expensive. PCA Club Racing (and to an extent BMWCCA) is seen as much more 'wealthy people racing' due to the cost of the cars and their repairs. So...someone with more money than sense thinks "I need to race in PCA because I have money"...
3)Nobody tells people when they do things wrong without it turning into a confrontation. Going to the steward is like going to the principal's office as a kid - you know you're in for a tongue lashing (or worse where I grew up!) so you're immediately defensive. Hot tempers because of the A-Type personalities in PCA tend to turn a teaching moment into a confrontation. Again, back to the learning part that we never really do...
but I can say without a doubt that the overall personality of PCA racers is more arrogant and 'win at all costs' vs. the others. Not even close...
it's racing, sh&t happens...but so much of it is avoidable if people just respect each other.
What's funny is the best/fastest drivers among us usually have so few incidents... Coincidence??
1) we really don’t have any race school. Nobody is teaching rookies how to RACE, and have full situational awareness. People keep going along until something happens, then wonder why. I can't tell you how many video's I've seen where it's obvious the leading driver doesn't even know he has mirrors, or cars around them.
2) people with money and no experience jumping into fast cars as rookies is sometimes a problem. Learning to race when the consequences are much lower and speeds are slower helps build racecraft and awareness. Even SPB and SP1, the cars are substantially more capable than some cars you see in SCCA, NASA, and the endurance series. And way more expensive. PCA Club Racing (and to an extent BMWCCA) is seen as much more 'wealthy people racing' due to the cost of the cars and their repairs. So...someone with more money than sense thinks "I need to race in PCA because I have money"...
3)Nobody tells people when they do things wrong without it turning into a confrontation. Going to the steward is like going to the principal's office as a kid - you know you're in for a tongue lashing (or worse where I grew up!) so you're immediately defensive. Hot tempers because of the A-Type personalities in PCA tend to turn a teaching moment into a confrontation. Again, back to the learning part that we never really do...
but I can say without a doubt that the overall personality of PCA racers is more arrogant and 'win at all costs' vs. the others. Not even close...
it's racing, sh&t happens...but so much of it is avoidable if people just respect each other.
What's funny is the best/fastest drivers among us usually have so few incidents... Coincidence??
#1, agreed. There doesn't appear to be formal race training or school (AFAIK). Instead, extensive DE experience and a Rookie orientation session, along with presumed mentoring, is deemed sufficient. Without that, there is no "do not pass go" for folks that need it. Nor is there a period of observation by trained or at least experienced evaluators, NOT instructors. Folks are generally just dumped into the general prison population.
#2, agreed. I've worked with people who jumped from SPB to a Cup. Most were ready, some were not... We used to have a joke among coaches and competitors, only half wry now, "Sell your company? Buy a Cup car!" Of course, not all are this way, but some are...
#3, agree 100%! It's a system set up for confrontation. No one wants to go to the principal's office. Rarely is it looked upon as a learning opportunity. I think folks are HUNGRY for information "how to do it right." But, not encouraged to do it, as it is right now.
Your statement in bold is key. But training and, more importantly, PASSING the test, whatever that may be is missing in the equation. Like instructor promotion on steroids, for some groups.
Only thing I don't see as you do is your last comment. While many front runners avoid chronic contact, there are still some pretty egregious things I've seen in video over the last ten years covering the first five rows of any race group.
09-23-2022, 05:58 PM
#104
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The secret is the right ratio between ruling with a hard but fair hand and looking at the big picture, for sure.
I've seen it done, so I know it can be done. I really like when @tgsmith4845 pipes in here. Also, @Frank 993 C4S Always ready to learn something from these guys.
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Matt Romanowski (09-23-2022)
09-23-2022, 11:50 PM
#105
Drivers all have the ultimate vote in where they race. I'm eager to see how this all plays out.
Last edited by will968; 09-24-2022 at 12:22 AM.