steveP911

Frank said, "I know this will invoke a terrible response (do not really care), however after well over 150 track days, many if not most of the HPDE instructors I have had should have paid me".

I guess I am stunned that someone would say all that. "Should have paid me"? You cannot be serious.

I have a hard time complaining about DE instructors when I consider (a) they are basically unpaid, notwithstanding the variable (not full) credit received for their track fees, (b) the reality that they are usually getting in a fast (maybe) car with a stranger who could ultimately injure or kill them, and (c) they are usually also trying to get in their own laps to improve their skills and have fun. I have had 16 different instructors so far and only one was "bad", and I did register my complaint/concerns privately to the Chief Instructor. Everyone else was genuinely trying to help me get better/faster/safer. Some went the extra mile with help before and after the event. A point I would make about instructors - don't expect to find one who can do it all for you. Rather, look to them as a series of teachers whose instruction can complement or fill in each other's gaps.

My PCA group (Potomac) has been using the SLIP (Skill Level Instruction Program) rating system which helps to minimize subjectivity in driver evaluation and skill level definition. I would hope that most groups are using this or a similar set of metrics. Note that this system also includes the ability to objectively rate your instructor. I have been assured by the CI group that they read all of this and dutifully consider it in the areas of promotions and instructor management.

Lastly, not to wax philosophical, but most things in life are a two-way street. To quickly blame another usually means you have skipped over considering yourself as part of the problem.

Count me as a strong and grateful HPDE instructor supporter, not complainer.

dgrobs

100% spot on, and very well put.

Heading over to NNJR’s holiday party right now with the wife. Hopefully, 95% of the people there don’t suck at holiday parties…..

991carreradriver

I absolutely meant what I said, however my intended meaning was not clear. I was charged for instruction. The instruction for the most part was not worth what I paid, not to mention dealing with late start times etc. Hence, the comment they should have paid me - meaning I should not have been charged.

991carreradriver

You got this right ^^^^. The PM's I have received seem to have you singled out. Perhaps, you are onto something. To be clear, I don't know you, never driven with you and have no issue with you. Your words speak volumes to some folks, just not me. You can shoot the messenger, but somehow more messenger's keep coming, eventually they come for you.

991carreradriver

Doubtful!

Veloce Raptor

Good grief

dgrobs

The PM’s you’ve been getting have me singled out? As what, one of the 95+% of PCA instructors who are clueless or one of the 5% who know what they’re doing?
Also, these messengers that are all coming for me, any chance you could give me a little heads up so I know it’s coming. Maybe 1 if by land and 2 if by sea? I just wanna be ready for them. Thanks in advance for this.

winders

I bet you think your farts smell like vanilla....

dgrobs

Maybe.
Vanilla what?
Beans? Extract? I’ve Cream? Starbucks?
Vanilla what?

hp18racer

I instruct for the Kansas City region PCA occasionally. The discount on my weekend fee is pissing in the wind. Spending a weekend of my time at a DE instead of a race is a big cost to me. Riding as a passenger with a driver who may not have any car control skills in a very fast car with a whole lot less safety equipment than I have when I race can be terrifying. I instruct to give back to the club that got me started, my experiences there as a student were all positive though I am sure I scared my first instructors horribly. I try hard to help my students be safe, have fun and be faster. I don't claim to be a professional or to have succeeded at teaching something to everyone I have ridden with but I try.

If you are considering doing a PCA DE it is my sincere hope that you come away from the experience with a big smile, a car that isn't broken and some new understanding of performance driving. If your assigned instructor isn't working out for you, I hope you will talk to the chief instructor before the weekend is over and see if you can be paired up someone else to turn it around.

I'm sure I'm not part of the top 5% of the instructors in my region. I still think you might have fun and learn something from me.

Gary R.

You were charged extra to have a PCA Instructor with you? I always paid the same from Green Instructed->Yellow Instructed->Yellow Solo->White->Black when I did DE's in the Northeast. Were these bad Professional Instructors/Coaches you paid for?

Oh, and yes, always tip your instructor, in your case it would be "Take a tip from me, stop instructing".. .

roadie13

Maybe one has to be more tolerant here and look at the big picture. Perhaps the instructor who told you to go elsewhere was only partly referring to your driving, maybe he felt you were a bit of a problematic student altogether? I think the technical term is Difficult to Instruct on a Closed tracK.

I am not usually triggered by anything on RL, but your original post was a bit offensive to me and probably to many others who have done any volunteer instructing. You combative follow-ups are really mean, and we are just doing radio here....

Back to OP, I was tipped twice, unsolicited of course. Once was a bottle of wine from a son-father team sharing their Corvette, the other was a bit of cash from a Porsche driver who was Head of the North-American section of a large bank; I thought he would be ok. For me, I both like instructing and giving back to the community, but I am certainly trying to do an expensive hobby cheaply, so the fee reduction/elimination is meaningful to me.

I try to be realistic about what I can achieve with more advanced students and try to follow the advice of helping them to self-reflect and self-observe better; once I am out of my effortless skill zone I'd be the first to tell them to seek more professional driving instruction if they can afford it.

Dre01SS

I instruct at PEC and HPDEs for another organization, and have been offered tips for both events. Never solicited, never expected or taken for granted/assumed.
Neither of the organizations call out tipping as something expected or encouraged. I am more than grateful for when someone feels compelled to do so, and if its any reflection of how much they enjoyed the driving experience.

LuigiVampa

I think the lesson we learn here is that instructors are people and people can be jerks.

My experience is that the vast majority of instructors instruct because the want to give back, and the vast majority of students have a great time and are in awe of their instructors.

There are many days where I would gladly exchange my instructor discount for some free time but I feel that instructing is a responsibility. Let's not make it like there is a cancer on PCA's instructor corps because of a couple of jagoffs!

dgrobs

100% true, but I think what's got some folks upset here is that "95%" is a long way from "a couple of jagoffs".