Tire Age / Condition / HPDE Discussion
01-12-2023, 03:13 PM
#46
Wow!
50ish heat cycles?
I'm probably at 20...
And now, on to those angry villagers, waiting patiently with the torches and pitchforks....
Am I racing? No... they're NT01s
Am I chasing fast lap times? No... see above
Are they still consistent? Yes....
Has there been any visible difference in the aging of the rubber between pairs? No....
Any detectable difference in grip between the 2 sides? No, and I've tried them both ways.....
Have they suffered any impact damage? No, and I know where they've been since new....
Can I tell when a tire has gone off? Oh yeah....
Have I had that happen mid-session? Oh yeah....
Have these exhibited any symptoms? No....
Are these Firestone Steel Radial 500s? No....
Will I be running these until they wear out? No....
Do I expect the car to need further suspension adjustments when I get new tires? Without a doubt!!!!!
2 tires were manufactured earlier than the other 2, then essentially stored unused.
All were brought into use at the same time and have had equal use and wear.
I doubt that having been stored four years magically introduced some structural defect into them...
And they behave exactly the same as their 2 year old peers.
I see no practical issue using these for my current needs...
Which are having a good, solid, consistent track tire to shake the bugs out my car, and these tires are perfect for that.
Who in their right mind would buy a new set just for that?
The Mfr recommended tire age replacement recommendation has less to do with safety, and a lot more to do with liability.
Porsche does everything right and still gets sued....
50ish heat cycles?
I'm probably at 20...
And now, on to those angry villagers, waiting patiently with the torches and pitchforks....
Am I racing? No... they're NT01s
Am I chasing fast lap times? No... see above
Are they still consistent? Yes....
Has there been any visible difference in the aging of the rubber between pairs? No....
Any detectable difference in grip between the 2 sides? No, and I've tried them both ways.....
Have they suffered any impact damage? No, and I know where they've been since new....
Can I tell when a tire has gone off? Oh yeah....
Have I had that happen mid-session? Oh yeah....
Have these exhibited any symptoms? No....
Are these Firestone Steel Radial 500s? No....
Will I be running these until they wear out? No....
Do I expect the car to need further suspension adjustments when I get new tires? Without a doubt!!!!!
2 tires were manufactured earlier than the other 2, then essentially stored unused.
All were brought into use at the same time and have had equal use and wear.
I doubt that having been stored four years magically introduced some structural defect into them...
And they behave exactly the same as their 2 year old peers.
I see no practical issue using these for my current needs...
Which are having a good, solid, consistent track tire to shake the bugs out my car, and these tires are perfect for that.
Who in their right mind would buy a new set just for that?
The Mfr recommended tire age replacement recommendation has less to do with safety, and a lot more to do with liability.
Porsche does everything right and still gets sued....
01-12-2023, 03:19 PM
#47
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Nope. Not a Goomba, either.
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"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
01-12-2023, 06:35 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
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Any logical argument against my choice?
I'm not buying that they're unsafe, without some reason other than 'they're old, therefore they must be".
Maybe we should just agree to disagree.
I'm not buying that they're unsafe, without some reason other than 'they're old, therefore they must be".
Maybe we should just agree to disagree.
Last edited by Nowanker; 01-12-2023 at 06:40 PM.
01-12-2023, 07:48 PM
#49
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I have seen tires that were 3 years old and already had some cracking in them. As an instructor/coach I will not and have refused to get in cars when I have seen this. Anytime I see a tire over 2 years old I grab my light and glasses and really look them over before I agree to get in the car doing 120+ or cornering G's. Tires today aren't the same as tires made 15 years ago, its one thing hard tires its another seeing signs of dry rot.
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needmoregarage (01-12-2023)
01-15-2023, 11:20 AM
#50
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Agree on both counts. While I don't think there is an age rule or date check for most Regions or events in general, a grid check and instructor check showing lack of tread, cuts and tears, blistering and dry rot are dead giveaways.
I don't think I've ever worked with someone that has DOT tires (200TW and greater) less than three years old and DOT R-comp or slicks older than a year to fifteen months. First questions on my questionnaire are a) how old are your tires and b) do you have another set, preferably new, available.
The tires are your only connection with Mother Earth. A lot of what people need to do to go quicker depends on trusting the platform underneath them.
If there is one thing other than compressing brake zones, eliminating dead time and throttle commitment people change after working with me, it's implementing a good tire replacement strategy. One that doesn't get in their way of safety and being able to commit more and better.
I don't think I've ever worked with someone that has DOT tires (200TW and greater) less than three years old and DOT R-comp or slicks older than a year to fifteen months. First questions on my questionnaire are a) how old are your tires and b) do you have another set, preferably new, available.
The tires are your only connection with Mother Earth. A lot of what people need to do to go quicker depends on trusting the platform underneath them.
If there is one thing other than compressing brake zones, eliminating dead time and throttle commitment people change after working with me, it's implementing a good tire replacement strategy. One that doesn't get in their way of safety and being able to commit more and better.
Peter could you share some of your thoughts on tire replacement strategy? I’m just getting back into the hobby, limiting to DE’s at this point. I don’t have the budget to change out a $3k set of Perelli or Michelin slicks after only a handful of heat cycles, particular since it’s just a DE weekend. But by the same token I don’t want to take the slicks to a point beyond where they are safe, as I know they don’t give the same aural feedback a street car gives at the limit. Plus even at a DE, there is the element of competition and I don’t want to be trailing some of my friends because of cycled out slicks.
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needmoregarage (01-15-2023)
01-15-2023, 12:53 PM
#53
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I just bought the car which came with a brand new set of Pirellis. I’m thinking the same as you with a set of Hankooks on order to replace them at the point the slicks need replacement.
01-15-2023, 01:41 PM
#54
Cliff
01-15-2023, 05:01 PM
#55
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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09-11-2023, 12:56 PM
#56
Burning Brakes
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Getting bored with Lewis Hamilton's fashion atrocities .... so I thought I'd resurrect this topic for some different controversy.
Had the car out for some more reliability testing a couple of weekends ago.
Same prehistoric NT01s... one pair now 7 years old, the other 3+ years old.
Quick facts refresher :
All the same size, and all put on the track at the same time.
Old pair on one side, older pair on the other.
The senior ones were just rolled around the shop longer. No sun, and only ambient ozone levels.
Until this last outing they still behaved like NT01s always do.
Not super fast, or responsive, but grippy enough, consistent, predictable.
This outing the same... just a little less grip.
Still predictable and consistent, but seemed more sensitive to pressure. It was 95 out, that probably influenced things too...
Just for the sake of enlightenment, i swapped the fronts side-side.
Everything else being equal but the manufacture date, if age itself was any factor, my usually benign 951 would have gone rogue.
Drove just the same. Didn't bother switching them back for the rest of the weekend.
By Sunday afternoon, they were clearly done. They slowed way down, but never changed their behavior.
Alas, I never tracked heat cycles...
Their was still a lot of tread left, so I suspect they didn't last as many cycles as typical.... like any tire, they would have been losing grip as they sat after their initial use.
They served their purpose. At no time did they do anything unpredictable... Or feel remotely 'unsafe'.
Torches or pitchforks, anyone?
Had the car out for some more reliability testing a couple of weekends ago.
Same prehistoric NT01s... one pair now 7 years old, the other 3+ years old.
Quick facts refresher :
All the same size, and all put on the track at the same time.
Old pair on one side, older pair on the other.
The senior ones were just rolled around the shop longer. No sun, and only ambient ozone levels.
Until this last outing they still behaved like NT01s always do.
Not super fast, or responsive, but grippy enough, consistent, predictable.
This outing the same... just a little less grip.
Still predictable and consistent, but seemed more sensitive to pressure. It was 95 out, that probably influenced things too...
Just for the sake of enlightenment, i swapped the fronts side-side.
Everything else being equal but the manufacture date, if age itself was any factor, my usually benign 951 would have gone rogue.
Drove just the same. Didn't bother switching them back for the rest of the weekend.
By Sunday afternoon, they were clearly done. They slowed way down, but never changed their behavior.
Alas, I never tracked heat cycles...
Their was still a lot of tread left, so I suspect they didn't last as many cycles as typical.... like any tire, they would have been losing grip as they sat after their initial use.
They served their purpose. At no time did they do anything unpredictable... Or feel remotely 'unsafe'.
Torches or pitchforks, anyone?
09-11-2023, 09:30 PM
#57
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Pitchfork from me. I'm not an expert, just a third year PCA white driver. I do have a strong safety bias as a retired trauma surgeon.
Why do you value your health and life so little little that you drove on these tires? What were you trying to prove?
You also subjected other drivers around you to risk they didn't sign up for. The absence of an incident doesn't mean you made a good decision. I'm glad nothing happened, but I would not want to be on track with you.
Why do you value your health and life so little little that you drove on these tires? What were you trying to prove?
You also subjected other drivers around you to risk they didn't sign up for. The absence of an incident doesn't mean you made a good decision. I'm glad nothing happened, but I would not want to be on track with you.
Last edited by ldamelio; 09-11-2023 at 09:39 PM.
09-11-2023, 11:01 PM
#58
Burning Brakes
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Just trying to make the point that the '5 year' rule is completely arbitrary.
So far, no one has offered any real reason for it...
Other than "It's what Porsche says".
They're just covering their asses.
Despite their Soon Yi/Woody Allen age disparity, once used, all 4 tires aged out together.
The 'ancient' tires behaved exactly like their younger brothers...
All 4 just got slower and slower over the course of the weekend.
Completely without drama, just like what would be expected from a set of still-OK-but-on-their-way-out track tires.
Tires suffered no physical damage, ever.
No dry rot.
No sun damage.
Still failing to see any reasons for a tire to fail strictly from calendar age, absent other conditions.
So far, no one has offered any real reason for it...
Other than "It's what Porsche says".
They're just covering their asses.
Despite their Soon Yi/Woody Allen age disparity, once used, all 4 tires aged out together.
The 'ancient' tires behaved exactly like their younger brothers...
All 4 just got slower and slower over the course of the weekend.
Completely without drama, just like what would be expected from a set of still-OK-but-on-their-way-out track tires.
Tires suffered no physical damage, ever.
No dry rot.
No sun damage.
Still failing to see any reasons for a tire to fail strictly from calendar age, absent other conditions.
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Mahler9th (09-13-2023)
09-12-2023, 02:02 AM
#59
Drifting
THe only tires I've found to still grip good at 5+ years are bridgestone RE's.
Most everything else I think it's a really bad idea because if they're that old they likely hockey pucked. Less grip and easier to brake loose suddenly. I find some tires, such as dunlops are like driving on glass when they get 5+ years old. Michelins after a year I find are usually shot, even if they're just street driven.
If they're stored well they can potentially be ok still though. I know ice racers in a specific class that horded blizzaks from over 20 years ago now because they've never made a winter tire that soft since, and they're still cheater tires. If it's on a car with no power I'll use old tires still as there isn't really any downside. On a car with power though I really hate the back end kicking out every time I make a minute mistake with giving it throttle slightly too eraly or too much. As the poster said above it's actually somewhat dangerous. My cup2's are only a couple yaers old and i lost track of the heat cycles but probably have 20+ sessions on them now. I almost crashed a friend out into me (maybe like 1% chance of that cuz i'm not worried about his driving but we were bumper to bumper) because my back end kicked out too much throttling out of a switch back and I left the traction control on and it cut my power down to nothing and felt like it almost stopped my car. It's basically made traction control super intrusive and dangerous whereas when the tires were fresh I could leave TC on and not really be bothered by it.
Most everything else I think it's a really bad idea because if they're that old they likely hockey pucked. Less grip and easier to brake loose suddenly. I find some tires, such as dunlops are like driving on glass when they get 5+ years old. Michelins after a year I find are usually shot, even if they're just street driven.
If they're stored well they can potentially be ok still though. I know ice racers in a specific class that horded blizzaks from over 20 years ago now because they've never made a winter tire that soft since, and they're still cheater tires. If it's on a car with no power I'll use old tires still as there isn't really any downside. On a car with power though I really hate the back end kicking out every time I make a minute mistake with giving it throttle slightly too eraly or too much. As the poster said above it's actually somewhat dangerous. My cup2's are only a couple yaers old and i lost track of the heat cycles but probably have 20+ sessions on them now. I almost crashed a friend out into me (maybe like 1% chance of that cuz i'm not worried about his driving but we were bumper to bumper) because my back end kicked out too much throttling out of a switch back and I left the traction control on and it cut my power down to nothing and felt like it almost stopped my car. It's basically made traction control super intrusive and dangerous whereas when the tires were fresh I could leave TC on and not really be bothered by it.
09-12-2023, 03:11 AM
#60
Rennlist Member
Interesting conversation.
Generally speaking if you can’t tell the difference between a prime or a cycled out set of tires you were never pushing them hard enough to begin with.
The issue of age has nothing to do with the stickiness of the compound, it’s the integrity of the tire. An old tire is good until it is not, there’s no slow change in the “feel” of the tire, it just comes apart and puts you in a wall. There are too many variables to the longevity of a tire so you have guidelines. It’s personal choice but to ignore even the manufacturers recommendations and be proud of it is just foolish. Years ago I ran a 3 year old set of sticker slicks that delaminated a rear. They looked perfect until they didn’t. Won’t ever do that again.
Racing tires have specialized compounds/construction for limited life, to maximize performance. They don’t like UV/Ozone/heat/cold or verbal abuse. street tires are a different animal but the same principals apply. I’ve seen plenty of tires at DEs start to show serious issues during weekends that looked fine and passed tech. Cracking, chunking and delam, time to pack up and go home. Nobody ever claimed this was a cheap pastime….
don’t even get me started on trailer tires….
Generally speaking if you can’t tell the difference between a prime or a cycled out set of tires you were never pushing them hard enough to begin with.
The issue of age has nothing to do with the stickiness of the compound, it’s the integrity of the tire. An old tire is good until it is not, there’s no slow change in the “feel” of the tire, it just comes apart and puts you in a wall. There are too many variables to the longevity of a tire so you have guidelines. It’s personal choice but to ignore even the manufacturers recommendations and be proud of it is just foolish. Years ago I ran a 3 year old set of sticker slicks that delaminated a rear. They looked perfect until they didn’t. Won’t ever do that again.
Racing tires have specialized compounds/construction for limited life, to maximize performance. They don’t like UV/Ozone/heat/cold or verbal abuse. street tires are a different animal but the same principals apply. I’ve seen plenty of tires at DEs start to show serious issues during weekends that looked fine and passed tech. Cracking, chunking and delam, time to pack up and go home. Nobody ever claimed this was a cheap pastime….
don’t even get me started on trailer tires….