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Lifeline abandoned AFFF and is using a non-toxic, fairly inert ABF for their foam. Turns out the AFFF they were using was not a bad version but decided to change because of the negativity toward AFFF.
We have Novec 1230 in our personal race car and it is by far the best solution.
Since we became a Lifeline distributor 1 month ago, we've converted 10 people from AFFF to either ABF or Novec.
Spoke to the owner at Emergency Suppression Systems as they use AFFF in their systems. He said that the ESS systems only have 3% of the AFFF solution and the rest is water so it is a very minimal amount and not hazardous. If the AFFF product is used at full strength or in huge amounts (like in a naval fire), that can be hazardous.
Good to know there are alternatives out there though for all to consider.
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Spoke to the owner at Emergency Suppression Systems as they use AFFF in their systems. He said that the ESS systems only have 3% of the AFFF solution and the rest is water so it is a very minimal amount and not hazardous. If the AFFF product is used at full strength or in huge amounts (like in a naval fire), that can be hazardous.
Good to know there are alternatives out there though for all to consider.
The jury is out on what is safe. Saint Gobain is pitting thousands of water filtration systems in homes in NH as the safe limit in NH is 12 ppm. There is not a well defined limit on what is safe.
Since we became a Lifeline distributor 1 month ago, we've converted 10 people from AFFF to either ABF or Novec.
I'm not freaking out over this, but it looks like I have an AFFF bottle in my car... Bob, when you say you've 'converted' 10 people from AFFF to another agent, did you refill their existing bottle w/something other than AFFF or did they need to swap their whole system to a system that uses a different agent (new bottle, compatible plumbing, nozzles etc...)?
Don't forget we are not fire fighters exposed to AFFF everyday. We might be exposed to 1/2 a bottle in a one off emergency event. Many of us have been racing for years and years and have never pulled that pin. For me it has been 20+ years of racing never to have pulled the pin. Maybe AFFF will be replaced in total and next time we can pick another agent but seems to me the AFFF situation is like getting a chest x-ray and why you get one "if benefits outweigh the risks."
I'm not freaking out over this, but it looks like I have an AFFF bottle in my car... Bob, when you say you've 'converted' 10 people from AFFF to another agent, did you refill their existing bottle w/something other than AFFF or did they need to swap their whole system to a system that uses a different agent (new bottle, compatible plumbing, nozzles etc...)?
Thanks,
Tom
They've had to replace their entire systems. SPA systems like yours use 6mm tubing. Lifeline uses 8 and the nozzles are different.
Most are not replacing because of the fear of any harmful effects from AFFF (noted below), but AFFF is a more corrosive than ABF, so if you do 'pull the pin' on AFFF, you really need to clean every single wire and everything and get the residue off. Not nearly as bad as Halon was, but still leaves a slightly corrosive film residue on everything. ABF is inert in that respect.
Novec is so much better because it comes out as a gas vs. foam and dissipates with zero residual. Novec is superior also because of how it disperses. Think about a garden hose - if you're standing in the line of spray, you get wet, if you're off by a few inches, you don't. Same holds for the foam based suppression - it only suppresses fire where it can cover. Novec comes out as a gas and the nozzles spray out everywhere, so it 'blankets the entire area and suffocates the fire more quickly and all over.
Originally Posted by fatbillybob
Don't forget we are not fire fighters exposed to AFFF everyday. We might be exposed to 1/2 a bottle in a one off emergency event. Many of us have been racing for years and years and have never pulled that pin. For me it has been 20+ years of racing never to have pulled the pin. Maybe AFFF will be replaced in total and next time we can pick another agent but seems to me the AFFF situation is like getting a chest x-ray and why you get one "if benefits outweigh the risks."
No question and I was about to mention that on this thread. Firemen are exposed daily to AFFF, the amount in a fire bottle in your car is fairly minimal, and the exposure anyone will get is close to zero. I never sell ABF or Novec against AFFF because of "carcinogenic concerns"... that's not real in our use cases IMO.
Last edited by NaroEscape; 02-09-2023 at 12:42 PM.
I definitely don't want to be poisoned by fire retardant, but for the few (hopefully zero) times I'll be exposed, I wouldn't want to sacrifice retardant effectiveness too much.
I definitely don't want to be poisoned by fire retardant, but for the few (hopefully zero) times I'll be exposed, I wouldn't want to sacrifice retardant effectiveness too much.
AFFF and ABF are technically the same effectiveness, though I would argue ABF from Lifeline is slightly more effective because they have the same rating for fire suppression with a smaller size bottle.
Novec is certainly more effective than both.
Another point to Novec - its absolutely inert and safe for electronics. The "A" in AFFF and ABF is "Aqueous", meaning they are both water based. Novec even in liquid form has no effect on electronics. In fact, their demo is they have a clear container of Novec with an iPad submerged in it that works just fine. You can drop you phone in it (I did) with zero effect. And I know from experience that my iPhone does NOT like water...
Another point to Novec - its absolutely inert and safe for electronics. The "A" in AFFF and ABF is "Aqueous", meaning they are both water based. Novec even in liquid form has no effect on electronics. In fact, their demo is they have a clear container of Novec with an iPad submerged in it that works just fine. You can drop you phone in it (I did) with zero effect. And I know from experience that my iPhone does NOT like water...
Another point along this line that was brought up to me, regarding the AFFF system I have in my prototype (about to be replaced with Novec, for this reason): guess what can happen if you dump a water-based foam on a compromised lithium battery? Guess what type of battery I have in my racecar? Yep - LiPo. And I have had an older, cheaper lithium battery melt down previously... so never even considered that (didn't have a Li battery when I got the system), but now it's a must...
Novec is superior also because of how it disperses. Think about a garden hose - if you're standing in the line of spray, you get wet, if you're off by a few inches, you don't. Same holds for the foam based suppression - it only suppresses fire where it can cover. Novec comes out as a gas and the nozzles spray out everywhere, so it 'blankets the entire area and suffocates the fire more quickly and all over.
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I have seen zero testing and seen near zero on best practices for system installs. I question gas systems because you could still be moving when you pull the pin. There are all kinds of unknown wind currents flowing around the engine bays and cockpits with mandated windows open. I'm not convinced coverage by gas is any better than liquid. Liquid also has the added benefit of cooling if it is on you but then some say you get steam burns? I wish there was more real data for us like there is with head neck restraints that has been beaten to death.
Personally I feel Novec is a better solution, but we sell far more foam based (AFFF and ABF) systems, mostly due to cost. And again, I've always used Novec for our own cars. Both obviously work fine for what we do, but either way, proper installation is key to effectiveness.
I wonder if Novec vs AFFF and other foam based stack up in terms of reliability. I've heard, granted anecdotally, that some water/foam based systems didn't expel the retardant properly when activated (no information on whether the systems were up to date in terms of maintenance). Are gas based systems more reliable in this regard?
I wonder if Novec vs AFFF and other foam based stack up in terms of reliability. I've heard, granted anecdotally, that some water/foam based systems didn't expel the retardant properly when activated (no information on whether the systems were up to date in terms of maintenance). Are gas based systems more reliable in this regard?
This is a problem with no data and poor dissemination of "best practices" in regards to install, use, and deployment. I don't have an answer to your question but on related note have seen some really bad stuff. OMP iirc stopped selling systems years ago when the flop tube hose unknowingly broke off the bottles. If this happens then water only comes out 50% if bottle mounted on it's side. Every season I take my bottle out and flip it upside down /back and forth to hear the metal weight at the end of the flop tube hit the other side of the bottle but not the opposite side of the extinguisher head. I figure then the flop tube is still doing it's function so that all the juice can come out if car right side up or upside-down. Then there is a famous car builder who mounts the AFFF firebottles standing up making the system ineffective if the car is upside-down. Anyone with a aqueous system have you ever checked your firebottle gauge to see if it goes up from cold of the morning to heat of the day? These gauges can corrode and you have no idea if you have pressure in the bottle but the stuck gauge tells you that you do. I had a 1 year old Safecraft gauge fail that way on me and go no joy from safecraft. I don't use their stuff anymore but that taught me to check my gauge.
A benefit to gas systems it none of these problems. My concern with those is wind blowing away effectiveness and re-ignition. I can find no data so I have no clue if that's just a baseless personal fear. When foam gets on a fire it's done.
Seriously, I just upgraded to Novec for my sports racing car. Good stuff, worth the money.
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02-08-2023, 09:08 PM
AFFF Safety Issue
