School me - what does "overdriving your tires" mean
04-18-2023, 02:08 PM
#31
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Appreciate you and others like you with your willingness to lend advice from such an experienced position. It really makes this place a valuable place to learn IMO.
04-18-2023, 02:52 PM
#32
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Some days, it feels that way.
But I still remember my first track day. Threw me out there, told me to treat the car like a gun, because if it went off, I’d WANT to be dead! 
Thank you! It’s a pleasure! Always enjoy with this terrific community of enthusiasts!
__________________
-Peter Krause
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
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-Peter Krause
www.peterkrause.net
www.gofasternow.com
"Combining the Art and Science of Driving Fast!"
Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
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911therapy (04-19-2023)
04-18-2023, 03:00 PM
#33
Drifting
I think some are discounting the potenital the OP is actually overdriving their tires for some reason. I am not sure why folks are quick to assume the OP is actually just much more advanced a driver than their street tires can handle.
When you haven't developed the wherewithal to know when you are past the limits of adhesion and actually sliding a tire (lap after lap), the last thing you want to do is upgrade the limits of adhesion. Now you are effectively going to raise the limits of the tire enough it makes it that much more difficult to learn how to drive a tire at ITS limit which is the most important thing to learn in this hobby.
It's hard to learn on an inconsistent tire but it's inconsistent because of your technical abilities. Fixing the tire is stunting your future growth versus fixing your vehicle (with camber) and upgrading your capability (by asking question here and taking input from the passenger seat).
Sadly there is a whole litany of drivers these days who picked up this hobby in the last 5-7 years and "belong" in the advanced group because they can drive their GT3 on Cup 2's at 70% and solve their problems with their bank accounts. Less and less folks ever drive near/at the limit instead hitting a figurative wall before jumping to remote res shocks, more power, slicks, or better aero.
15 years ago, relative speeds were such you HAD to be a better driver or you were SLOWWW. You didnt advance to the intermediate group or advanced group until you TRULY managed your vehicle with consistency nearer the limit IMO. This is just the nature of technological advancements. No doubt if I had more money I would also be that guy in the front of the pack refusing to point by and driving absurd lines in my Carrera GT :-).
When you haven't developed the wherewithal to know when you are past the limits of adhesion and actually sliding a tire (lap after lap), the last thing you want to do is upgrade the limits of adhesion. Now you are effectively going to raise the limits of the tire enough it makes it that much more difficult to learn how to drive a tire at ITS limit which is the most important thing to learn in this hobby.
It's hard to learn on an inconsistent tire but it's inconsistent because of your technical abilities. Fixing the tire is stunting your future growth versus fixing your vehicle (with camber) and upgrading your capability (by asking question here and taking input from the passenger seat).
Sadly there is a whole litany of drivers these days who picked up this hobby in the last 5-7 years and "belong" in the advanced group because they can drive their GT3 on Cup 2's at 70% and solve their problems with their bank accounts. Less and less folks ever drive near/at the limit instead hitting a figurative wall before jumping to remote res shocks, more power, slicks, or better aero.
15 years ago, relative speeds were such you HAD to be a better driver or you were SLOWWW. You didnt advance to the intermediate group or advanced group until you TRULY managed your vehicle with consistency nearer the limit IMO. This is just the nature of technological advancements. No doubt if I had more money I would also be that guy in the front of the pack refusing to point by and driving absurd lines in my Carrera GT :-).
As for OP my opinion is A) His driving is the problem, and he fixes that, ups his skill, and then he finds out he needs new tires anyway because they're not suitable for track unless you're a beginner, or B) His skill isn't his problem (or his only problem) and he needs tires that can take track abuse. Either way, tires are a safe first step.
I'll repeat myself from what I've said multiple times but I am 100% in agreement with procoach that consistent tires speed up learning. It's the same reason I think autocross is really bad for learning how to drive because the course is always changing. It's why I think don't modify a car, just figure it out is best. When your tires, car, track, etc is consistent, you can devote more brainpower to learning techniques and you'll also have more feedback that you did something good or bad because of what you did alone, not because the track changed because someone put a cone in the wrong spot or the tires got greasy randomly in that corner. I like turning into a robot when I drive and I need my equipment to be consistent to be able to trust it to do so.
Last edited by Zhao; 04-18-2023 at 03:04 PM.
04-18-2023, 06:29 PM
#35
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I'll repeat myself from what I've said multiple times but I am 100% in agreement with procoach that consistent tires speed up learning. It's the same reason I think autocross is really bad for learning how to drive because the course is always changing. It's why I think don't modify a car, just figure it out is best. When your tires, car, track, etc is consistent, you can devote more brainpower to learning techniques and you'll also have more feedback that you did something good or bad because of what you did alone, not because the track changed because someone put a cone in the wrong spot or the tires got greasy randomly in that corner. I like turning into a robot when I drive and I need my equipment to be consistent to be able to trust it to do so.
04-21-2023, 11:59 AM
#36
For the OP, there is a lot of discussion on tires etc. here and I think that's worth reading... but I want to come back your original question and answer in slightly different way.
When that coach said you're over-driving the tires, I suspect he meant that you are asking the tires (specifically the fronts) to do more than they are capable of doing. What does that mean? When turning, It means you are cranking the steering wheel too much when the car is not responding. When you turn the wheel you need to be in tune with the reactions of the car which means you may need to wait for the car to come around before cranking the steering wheel further. If the car is not changing direction all you are doing is beating up the tires and putting heat into them. Imagine the worst case here where you had a car that could turn the wheels 90 degrees and you cranked fully and immediately to 90 degrees- you'd simply plow straight ahead and the tires would get trashed.
I don't think the coach was talking about acceleration, but the same can be true for adding speed in a straight line in a front wheel drive car like this (especially if the traction control is off). If you are spinning/smoking the fronts on acceleration you're just beating up the tires instead of accelerating the car. All the energy that the engine is creating goes into heat and smoke. You should be able to run right up to the edge of spinning the tires (in road racing, drag racing will have some other specifics) as you add gas to get the best acceleration of the car.
This is true no matter what tires you use to varying degrees. If you can get the feel for it, it will be beneficial on any tires you drive. Good luck as you progress!
When that coach said you're over-driving the tires, I suspect he meant that you are asking the tires (specifically the fronts) to do more than they are capable of doing. What does that mean? When turning, It means you are cranking the steering wheel too much when the car is not responding. When you turn the wheel you need to be in tune with the reactions of the car which means you may need to wait for the car to come around before cranking the steering wheel further. If the car is not changing direction all you are doing is beating up the tires and putting heat into them. Imagine the worst case here where you had a car that could turn the wheels 90 degrees and you cranked fully and immediately to 90 degrees- you'd simply plow straight ahead and the tires would get trashed.
I don't think the coach was talking about acceleration, but the same can be true for adding speed in a straight line in a front wheel drive car like this (especially if the traction control is off). If you are spinning/smoking the fronts on acceleration you're just beating up the tires instead of accelerating the car. All the energy that the engine is creating goes into heat and smoke. You should be able to run right up to the edge of spinning the tires (in road racing, drag racing will have some other specifics) as you add gas to get the best acceleration of the car.
This is true no matter what tires you use to varying degrees. If you can get the feel for it, it will be beneficial on any tires you drive. Good luck as you progress!
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04-22-2023, 12:47 AM
#37
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Thread Starter
OP checking in :-)
I am the repeatedly referenced "OP". Couple of thoughts, having read most replies:
My takeaways so far in terms of improvement are:
For the record, I did replace the delaminated left front tire with the same brand and model, since I didn't want to discard all 4 tires yet. I may reach the point where I will, certainly when more than 1 is worn out, but I haven't reached it yet.
Thanks all, I am learning a ton from reading what you have to say.
/alex
- I am really pleased with how this thread has unfolded - very little hyperbole despite (apparently) strongly held beliefs across the spectrum of opinions. And a large number of people with respectable credentials offering genuinely helpful advice.
- I am and likely will remain in the proverbial "shallow end" of the pool, certainly $-wise when it comes to tracking, unless something radically changes in my life. I am aware of that and it doesn't really diminish the enjoyment I get from going to the track for DE events. I do own an aircooled but it is too dear to me to use as a learning vehicle for the track. I bought the Veloster because it fit my budget and my need for a reliable and practical daily driver while also having the ability to provide fun at the track which has been proven out in my personal experience. Yes I am finding some of its limitations - front camber is not adjustable as-is, and addressing that is the one area of investment I am committed to making. After reading and thinking about the tire comments I may invest in a set of wheels shod with R compound tires which I will put on before going to the track (emphasis on may).
- In terms of self-promoting to higher groups, I can't give an objective answer (and who really could?). Without making generalizations, I don't think my path is much different than average - find yourself comfortable being consistent on the track lap after lap in a session, getting regular point-bys, ending the session feeling relaxed not stressed and ready to take a slightly bigger bite next time. I will offer this: I will be at Thunderhill this Sunday, so if anyone wishes to take the right seat and appraise my performance I'd be more than happy to accommodate. And if the outcome of such an exercise is coming back on here and declaring me as the worst driver ever (run, don't walk), so be it. I deal with a slew of big-to-super-sized-ego individuals on a daily basis to earn my keep and I feel I have a pretty easy "API" in terms of taking feedback and keeping an even keel.
- Lastly, I didn't intend to fire up a thread on a (as it turns out) slightly spicy topic and walk away - I've simply not had time to catch up.
My takeaways so far in terms of improvement are:
- be more responsive to the feedback I am getting from the car when I feel the front sliding - don't wrestle it but instead think of a different line through the turn or go in slower
- (maybe) get more help from the rear in rotating the car with trail-braking
For the record, I did replace the delaminated left front tire with the same brand and model, since I didn't want to discard all 4 tires yet. I may reach the point where I will, certainly when more than 1 is worn out, but I haven't reached it yet.
Thanks all, I am learning a ton from reading what you have to say.
/alex
04-24-2023, 06:23 PM
#38
Burning Brakes
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Any feedback on Thunderhill Sunday, ard?
Hope your day went well! Any new approaches with the tires?
Assuming that was with 'On Grid'?
I ran with them Saturday for the first time, seemed like pretty cost effective track time.
I thought it was pretty well run. Very little evil behavior that I saw...
Hope your day went well! Any new approaches with the tires?
Assuming that was with 'On Grid'?
I ran with them Saturday for the first time, seemed like pretty cost effective track time.
I thought it was pretty well run. Very little evil behavior that I saw...
04-26-2023, 04:14 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
I am the repeatedly referenced "OP". Couple of thoughts, having read most replies:
My takeaways so far in terms of improvement are:
For the record, I did replace the delaminated left front tire with the same brand and model, since I didn't want to discard all 4 tires yet. I may reach the point where I will, certainly when more than 1 is worn out, but I haven't reached it yet.
Thanks all, I am learning a ton from reading what you have to say.
/alex
- I am really pleased with how this thread has unfolded - very little hyperbole despite (apparently) strongly held beliefs across the spectrum of opinions. And a large number of people with respectable credentials offering genuinely helpful advice.
- I am and likely will remain in the proverbial "shallow end" of the pool, certainly $-wise when it comes to tracking, unless something radically changes in my life. I am aware of that and it doesn't really diminish the enjoyment I get from going to the track for DE events. I do own an aircooled but it is too dear to me to use as a learning vehicle for the track. I bought the Veloster because it fit my budget and my need for a reliable and practical daily driver while also having the ability to provide fun at the track which has been proven out in my personal experience. Yes I am finding some of its limitations - front camber is not adjustable as-is, and addressing that is the one area of investment I am committed to making. After reading and thinking about the tire comments I may invest in a set of wheels shod with R compound tires which I will put on before going to the track (emphasis on may).
- In terms of self-promoting to higher groups, I can't give an objective answer (and who really could?). Without making generalizations, I don't think my path is much different than average - find yourself comfortable being consistent on the track lap after lap in a session, getting regular point-bys, ending the session feeling relaxed not stressed and ready to take a slightly bigger bite next time. I will offer this: I will be at Thunderhill this Sunday, so if anyone wishes to take the right seat and appraise my performance I'd be more than happy to accommodate. And if the outcome of such an exercise is coming back on here and declaring me as the worst driver ever (run, don't walk), so be it. I deal with a slew of big-to-super-sized-ego individuals on a daily basis to earn my keep and I feel I have a pretty easy "API" in terms of taking feedback and keeping an even keel.
- Lastly, I didn't intend to fire up a thread on a (as it turns out) slightly spicy topic and walk away - I've simply not had time to catch up.
My takeaways so far in terms of improvement are:
- be more responsive to the feedback I am getting from the car when I feel the front sliding - don't wrestle it but instead think of a different line through the turn or go in slower
- (maybe) get more help from the rear in rotating the car with trail-braking
For the record, I did replace the delaminated left front tire with the same brand and model, since I didn't want to discard all 4 tires yet. I may reach the point where I will, certainly when more than 1 is worn out, but I haven't reached it yet.
Thanks all, I am learning a ton from reading what you have to say.
/alex
Your takeaways are on-target and there's definitely a lot to be learned from what your "street" tires are telling you that will make you a better driver, but also sometimes bad tires are just bad tires and you may want to find something more well-suited to your use. There are trackable street tires and streetable track tires and you'll have to figure out what your budget and track schedule allow. In the meantime take advantage of the not so subtle "feedback" from your current tires and remember that as you advance your skills and move to tires with different capabilities there will still be feedback and you can potentially overdrive even the best track tire. The difference is they may not be screaming their feedback at you the way your current tires do. Good luck, have fun and be safe!
Jim