ard

I started tracking in a '98 986 (wonderful car). Moved on to a Hyundai Veloster N [FWD car] (don't knock it - it meets my criteria for (a) affordability (b) track capabilities (c) daily driver / grocery hauler (d) enthusiast community (e) [apparently] reasonably lenient factory warranty handling in light of track usage (f) aftermarket parts support (g) ability to blend in as "just another econobox" when necessary). Both cars were/are daily drivers. The Veloster is almost stock (larger front brake air scoops, 22mm adjustable rear anti-roll bar - vs. 20mm stock). In run in Intermediate and I think I'm right smack in the middle of Intermediate.

Alignment is as-delivered-new. Tires are Pirelli Pzero. At my most recent track day at Sonoma I badly chunked the left front tire. I ran 32(f)/33(r) cold and 39(f)/36(r) hot. Someone told me that I was "overdriving the tires". Well-meaning advice but I don't understand it. (Didn't have a chance to ask follow-up questions and frankly wasn't sure if that was just a saying to bamboozle newbies) What does it mean? What do I do about it (within reason), while maintaining the ability to drive long distances on the street? From what little the guys in Mountain View tell me when I ask them (hint: their name starts with a "G" ) it is about the tires getting too hot for their intended operating temp range, most likely due to excessive slip angles. The car pushed in T4, T7, and T11 so that's plausible. I don't have a tire pyrometer but even if I did, so what? I don't know the "intended operating" range of the tires. Where would I find that? All I have is my butt meter telling me the car is pushing in some turns.

So, what does "overdriving the tires" mean?

TIA

Zhao

Exceeding their grip too much and ending up slower, or putting too much heat into them and making them fall apart/also ending up with less grip and going slower. That term could be used for both.

It could be from anything from driving on poor tires for track with too much skill to driving like a yahoo on the track to not having enough camber, or a combination of all that and more.

If you don't have proper camber the outside edge of your tire is going to heat up more than the inside, but it's worse than that, it'll put a LOT more heat into it because it is flexing far more than it would normally. This issue can compound on a bumpy track in the corners, or by cranking the wheel too much in the corners (seen it with awd cars people can't get to turn but decide more wheel input and more gas is the solution).

If you drive like a yahoo it'll cause more heat than normal too. Too much wheel input, sliding too much, too much throttle on exit, whatever. Sometimes that's a good thing (i've driven like a yahoo on purpose on dot slicks I couldn't get warmed up fast enough otherwise), often it's a bad thing though. Once the tire exceeds it's temp range it performs worse and eventually starts falling apart. You'll get blisters or even delamination of entire sections of the tire. If you've ever locked up or spun out on super soft slicks you'll know how fast you can kill some tires when it's not being used right.

Crappy tires can easily be exceeded even with proper driving provided they haven't hockey pucked. I blistered a set of new bridgestone re980as's in monsoon like conditions on my daily driver on the track. I was the fastest thing on the track and the tires still couldn't handle the heat even in a cold rainstorm. IMO for track 200tw is about the limit I find drivable without having them overheat. Slowing down to save the tires seems like counter productive to what a track day is for.

One thing I've noticed with years of driving on garbage, is some tires have hockey pucked so bad they don't actually grip enough to 'over drive'. I bought a miata to run lead follow schools a couple years ago that came with michelin AS3's, they had so little grip I actually could drive full out all day with no camber and only but minimal wear into them.

Olemiss540

#1 Those tires are garbage from my experience
#2 You are inducing too much "slide" in your tires for their current grip level and alignment settings.
#3 Get a little more camber in the front wheels.
#4 Drive "neater" with more precise inputs and try to feel when the car is not taking any more steering inputs to back it off a touch
#5 Rotate the front tires mid-day if a track is particularly rough on a given tire.

Carlo_Carrera

^ Spot on.

I would also add:

#6 Step up to a set of R compounds.

Olemiss540

Don't think an intermediate driver that isn't sure about "over driving" a tires slip angle should jump into r comps or they will find out the hard way.

Carlo_Carrera

I completely disagree.

ldamelio

Gotta go with olemiss on this one. 400 and 200 TW tires let go more gradually than R compounds and are more appropriate for an intermediate driver who is learning about over driving. First sign of that something's wrong might be very abrupt and expensive.

Carlo_Carrera

Again, I completely disagree.

R compounds will give him much better and consistent feedback. Street tires are for the street, not for the track at the intermediate skill level. And some R compounds have around a 200 UTQG rating so not sure you understand what R compounds are? They are not slicks.

Also, technical prowess doesn’t necessarily relate to driver skill. I know plenty of very advanced drivers/instructors who are very very quick yet know little technically. But they know how to drive.

Olemiss540

Definately never the best approach to question someone's intelligence to prove a point. There are plenty of very quick drivers that dont know how to drive these days so that much we can agree on. RComps are unnecessary in 95% of todays HPDEs and if you have a street alignment are a TOTAL waste of money.

Carlo_Carrera

No offense, but you don’t have a clue about what you’re talking about.

Street tires are designed for the street, not the race track. R compounds are designed specifically for DE track days on “normal” cars with “normal” alignments. Again, R compounds are not racing slicks.

You can go to any DE event in the USA and 50% of the cars in the intermediate and advanced groups will be on R compounds. The other 40%, the super serious guys, will be on racing slicks. The last 10% will be out there struggling on street tires.

Olemiss540

No offense, but you don't have a clue what you are talking about. No offense though.

ProCoach

This is my experience over the last few decades as well.

There is a significant performance, capability and confidence inspiring difference between 200 TW tires and R-comps. I recommend them for most solo drivers and for sensible novices.

As drivers get quicker, the full tread 200TW tires, with their unsupported and thick tread blocks and large void areas can’t wick away heat, with the consequence of chunking and potential failure.

After a couple tire tests for magazines, I’ve found that while the limits are higher, the handling characteristics are similar. The slip angle curves are the same, only the force generated is higher. Fun!

Purpose-built racing slicks require a completely different warm-up regimen, have a more abbreviated lifespan, but are the ultimate in performance and confidence inspiration.

Carlo_Carrera

So you have nothing more to add?

Carlo_Carrera

For the benefit of the OP here is a short list of somewhat streetable R compound tires that will vastly improve the track experience. There are plenty more out there but these are models I have personally used, the tried and true Nittos are my favorite.

Nitto NT-01
Falkens Ariens RT660
Nankang AR-1
Yokohama Advan A052

Matt Lane

Yeah, I'm with Olemiss540 on this one. Without getting into insults and with respect to Peter that has forgotten more than I may know

This has been my experience as well instructing BMW CCA and PCA DE. The average early solo and intermediate drivers are NOWHERE near driving at the limit consistently. They do it (and exceed it) from time to time, but not consistently. That's not because they have unsafe or inadequate tires. They are universally working on improving vision, smooth inputs, brake application/release, balancing the chassis, along with situational awareness, good safety protocol and passing etiquette. In a DE context, R compound tires aren't going to help with any of that.

Actually, a pretty basic (and ancient) tire like an NT-01 will require more than 3 degrees negative camber. At least it does when it starts to get driven close to the limit and in its intended slip angle range. That's no longer a realistic or a normal alignment, for a normal car. Nor is it where most intermediate drivers are consistently comfortable exploiting in isolation.

As for what we may see guys running, that's irrelevant IMO. Many of them are fooling themselves chasing lap times, making their life more complicated and not doing the work on the basics.

Just a counterpoint.

Cheers

Matt