lgusto

Hi folks,

I'm a little over a year into my 2014 911 C2 with the 7-speed manual transmission. I *thought* I was doing well with my heel-and-toe (H&T) efforts and it's certainly a blast on the track. But analyzing the "squiggly lines" on my Garmin Catalyst I can see nonlinear deceleration coming into corners when I downshift. In other words my braking pressure fluctuates during my H&T downshifts.

My dilemma, and nature of my question, is how to maintain consistent brake pressure when downshifting with heel-and-toe. Practicing on a deserted road is fun and effective but it doesn't offer the right muscle memory due to the inability to go from 130mph down to 40 (think Turn 7 at Sebring or WGI). On my C2 it seems that hard braking results in the brake pedal being significantly lower than the throttle, requiring some lifting of my foot for H&T.

So does anyone have advice on a way to practice H&T during heavy braking....other than just "seat time". My tendency to overthink things has led to lots of crazy ideas such as some sort of device that records where the brake pedal ends up during heavy braking and then practicing H&T at that brake level while sitting in the driveway.

Thoughts and advice from the experienced manual transmission folks? Other than "get PDK" of course.

Thanks

Olemiss540

Have you only been doing track days for 1 year? How many events have you done? Is the goal to get better or to be faster? Any interest in an autoblip device if it's the latter? I am sure pro coaches will weigh in but all I can say is don't be too hard on yourself and expect to nail ot early on in the process.

You are talking about mastery of one of the more difficult techniques in driving. It's going to take serious "seat time" to get the wherewithal to accomplish, something I have not been able to master after 15 years on track. Practice is the only way, there is no magic bullet I am aware of but its incredibly rewarding when you get it right.

You could always brake earlier with a focus each lap on the heel toe operation and not so much on threshold braking I guess. It will be easier to focus on results if you are not one slip from being in a gravel pit.

amurph182

this is what I’ve been doing, coming from a PDK in my last (first) track car to a manual. Always drove manuals on the street, so no stranger to the technique but there’s a HUGE difference between heel toe on a spirited backroads drive and downshifting while threshold braking at the track. Started backing up my braking points quite a bit until everything was working smoothly, then incrementally braking a bit later, get it working, brake later, get it working, etc. I’m still not braking as late as I was with the PDK but I’m also gaining significant time over previous sessions by braking less overall and carrying more speed through the corners. Ideally, the goal is to keep going a bit deeper each time until I can get that right combo of braking as late as I can, as little as I can, while making the downshift as smooth as I can. Fully accept that there’s a limit to doing “the best I can” before ending up in the gravel or wall, so as long as I keep improving I’m fine with not being at the absolute limit.

Also, get an autoblipper. It works amazingly well and I use mine when I want to work on other things without worrying about heel toe or when I’m just not feeling it.

ProCoach

What a great post and a great question. You are NOT alone.

When I started using GPS and accelerometer measured data as a coaching tool at DE’s more than twenty years ago, this was the FIRST thing I noticed.

In analyzing and trying to find the root cause for when drivers overshot the corner entry and missed the apex, even though they were using an appropriate BoB (beginning of braking) point, it became clear that those areas where the blip, especially lengthy ones, interrupted the efficient slowing of the car.

My coaching revolves around devising exercises to combat these deficits, and improve realization of opportunities for improvement.

In your case, I would practice on the road, as once you get this down, you’ll do it automatically, on the road and on the track.

First, prioritize braking at the expense of the tidiness of the blip. Also, realize the blip is only an aid and does not need to be exact, or slow. Pay attention to how long the clutch is depressed during the downshifts and practice shortening that time, then ultimately dipping, instead of fully depressing, the clutch. If you do it as quickly as you should, you don’t run the risk of “losing the revs” between downshifts, the most common worry drivers have except for chirping the rear tires.

I come from a time when feathery, beautifully executed H&T downshifts were one of the major differences between good and great drivers, besides saving some really expensive and delicate gearboxes!

I would start with coasting down on the road with no traffic around you, removing the braking component and focusing only on shortening the blip and judging the correct timing to go into each lower gear (generally starts with longer intervals between downshifts and then progressively shorter intervals between as the speed and gear position drop).

Then, add light, but constant brake pressure (no more than a 2 pedal out of 10) and do the same thing, but prioritize totally the steady brake pressure, even if you wildly overshoot the revs. You’ll learn that you need less amplitude and time spent on the blip than you think.

Since it’s hard to come near threshold brake on the road, just move the brake pedal up to 5 or 6 until
ypu get comfortable and can feel that your head is not a bobble-head when H&T downshifting.

Finally, at the track, start where you left off on the street, making SURE there is no one closing or close behind you, then add brake pressure over the course of several sessions throughout the longest brake zone, NOT WORRYING about your corner entry speed. Then, look at your Garmin.

You can do it, just need to 100% prioritize braking.

sonorous

I am not a heel and toe expert yet but I committed myself last year to learning it. I have a ND1 MX-5 Cup and on my first few outings realized that I was terrible at heel and toe and my learning curve was very slow. My ability to coordinate the foot movements with everything else going on track was really bad. I spent a lot of time practicing on my sim in a Miata, just doing laps and trying to develop the muscle memory to get it right. The sim helped a lot! I literally spend all last year working on heel and toe between sim and driving IRL. All of the sudden, at the end of last year it all came together. That being said, I am not yet executing smooth braking during the blip, but I am really comfortable with the footwork so each session is getting better. Since I have not fully mastered the craft, I probably should not give advice, but clearly seat time is a method to become a master. So if you want to compress the learning curve, my advice is a sim is a great way to get much more seat time and practice between track days. I actually video recorded my footwork in the sim and then watched it back to critique myself. You may find that depending on the pedal setup you may have to adjust your foot position and technique. Some people use the side of their foot, some people use their heel. I don't think there is one right way, but what works for you, and your vehicle.

ProCoach

^^This^^

ProCoach

Brady is one of the best at doing this.

Nickshu

I have this same problem and see it in my data. Video has helped me see what I am doing and work on correcting it. Here is a short clip of a full DE/practice session that I took of my footwork. I just stuck a GoPro on the center tunnel, aimed at my feet. Would be neat to move my Vbox camera down there the correlate to the data but I have not gone that far yet.

lgusto

Thanks to all for the answers. What I'd really like to Master is Rennlist and the ability to reply to more than one quote at once.

Yes, a little more than a year in DE. Had never even been in a sports care before and now have a full on addiction. Spent a dozen track days with truly amazing instructors that were even more amazing human beings. And have spent a dozen days solo. My "home" track is Sebring but summers are spent in the Northeast so I've been fortunate to experience several great tracks up there including WGI and Club Motorsports. My goal is to learn to drive really, really well. It's subjective for sure but safety, consistency....and fun are all part of the metrics. Lap times fall further down the list, but I'm human and use them to gauge progress. My first days at Sebring struggled the break 3:00 mark and now am consistently around 2:37.

My H&T *feels* good, sounds good, no bobble-head. But the data shows otherwise. Will try your approach of earlier braking leaving more time to focus on the shift.

lgusto

Fabulous! The custom pedals look terrific and guess that they help a lot with H&T.

I'll leave the left foot braking for a little later in my development.

lgusto

Thanks Peter. As usual I'll need a couple of hours to fully digest your advice. For now I've added "feathery" to my goals.

LuigiVampa

Common problem and I still sometimes struggle with modulating brake pressure when I have to heal toe.

I can't add much to what Peter said but what I will say is that many beginning drivers try to get everything done before their turn-in point because that is the way beginner drivers are taught. This creates a good part of the problem.

Concentrate on getting more of the initial braking done correctly and then downshift when the car is already partially slowed. It will be easier to modulate brake pressure and get your heal toe done.

Exit ramps off of highways are a great place to heal toe. I got "pulled over" in a vacant school parking lot many years ago practicing heal toe. Cop found it interesting and told me to carry on.

ProCoach

^^This^^

Mike Roblin

Larry,

I’ll throw in my two cents to the excellent advice above. What kind of shoes are you wearing while driving? I was amazed at the improvement that a good pair of racing boots did for my accuracy when performing H/T downshifts.

Also, in my personal experience I have to adjust my timing and amplitude of the blip depending on the type of throttle and weight of the flywheel in the car. The blip in my 996 Cup with a very light flywheel and an actual throttle cable attached directly between the gas pedal and throttle body is quick are sharp but if I’m in a street car with throttle by wire and a heavy flywheel I’ll end up with a slightly later and longer blip to get it right.

In my first 911 (‘79 Targa) the brake pedal position was user adjustable and so I moved it so the brake pedal (when pushed hard at the track) was forwards enough that my heel could more easily be behind the brake and closer to the bottom of the throttle pedal. Something I’ve noticed in the newer machinery is that to really have to kick your heel forward (almost uncomfortably so) to get to the throttle.

Not sure how much that helps but I do agree it is a skill that takes time to master. Have patience and keep trying!

lgusto

Great point about how beginners like me are taught. At Sebring Turn 7 I come in redlining 4th gear, brake very hard and skip shift to 2nd. By the time the clutch is out I'm near the end of the tire wall on the right, finish braking and turn in. Perhaps I should wait until I'm completely done braking then shift.